More timing

Mazinger

Mazinger

Daily Driver
I finally got "the titanic" to a point where I could try to start it. fuel pump running, all cut wires and hoses repaired, new plugs,ect. Car sat for over 8 years outside in DC. Here is the question: I remember from my previous X1/9s that the flywheel and crank pully were idiot-proof, meaning they could not be put on incorrectly, is this true? It's an 87 by the way. I ask because after much cranking and checking things I looked at all the marks and when the cam is lined up, the crank pully is nowhere near the pointer, neither is the mark on the flywheel. I took of the timing belt to find the proper place and found that TDC was with the crank mark parallel with the ground, again nowhere near. How has this happened? Did somebody loose the key and just tightened the pully, that does not explain that after finding the mark on the flywheel, the crank is 180 from crank, or BDC. I can put a new timing belt on an X in less than 30 minutes but this is driving me insane today. ideas?
 
Check this

The main crank pulley (inside pulley) should have a little cut on the edge of it that marks TDC. This mark "should" be idiot proof. The outside pulley or "cap" could be put on wrong. As long as the 3 studs go through the holes, it can be put on 3 different ways. As for the flywheel mark, it can also be put on wrong. I've personally never use it as a timing mark and always used the crank pulley. Once you find your TDC and the marks line up, line up the cam to it's mark and don't forget that the ignition timing on the dizzy is on #4 cylinder at TDC.

Good luck,
 
As Tom said...

I'm not sure about the crank pulley as I've never taken one off... but usually they are keyed and can only go on one way.

The flywheel can go on TWO ways, or be 180 degrees out.

With all these marks "off" on your engine... did you get it to run or are you still in the process?

If its NOT running... then I would suggest that you ASSUME the crank pulley is on correctly. Line up the cam pulley on its mark. Now check to see if these two line up on BOTH their marks. If they don't, I would then ASSUME your CAM timing is incorrect.

First, turn the engine until the cam is on its mark... Then loosen the idler and cam belt, so that the cam stays put... and turn over the engine (I put it in gear and push or pull the car) until the crank pulley lines up on its mark... Now ensure the rotor is pointing in the VICINITY of #4... then tighten the idler and cam belt again.

Your CAM TIMING should now be correct.

Your IGNITION TIMING can now be checked by placing a finger over the #1 plug hole, turning the engine over until compression is blown out, verifying the crank is on its mark (TDC) and the rotor is now pointing at #1.

Hope this helps...
 
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Idiot-proof?

Mazinger said:
I remember from my previous X1/9s that the flywheel and crank pully were idiot-proof, meaning they could not be put on incorrectly, is this true?
Click to expand...

You are underestimating the malignant powers of the PO:dunce::devil:

1) It's possible to put the flywheel on exactly 180 degrees out. Do this and when the flywheel timing mark is lined up, you'll have #2 and #3 at TDC, not 1 and 4. If you're lucky, you'll still be able to use the timing mark on the crank pulley. But....

Although the crank pulley is keyed so only goes on one way, and I can't imagine even the :devil::dunce: installing it without the key, it still can be screwed up:

2) The 1300 and 1500 motors use different timing marks for both the cam and crank pulleys. So they have different pulleys, identical except for the position of the timing marks relative to the keyways. If the :dunce::devil: should ever have happened to use a 1300 part on your 1500, the timing marks will lie to you.

3) The crank timing pointer on the 1500 can bent or sloppily installed, so can be a few degrees off. It's generally a good idea to check it against the flywheel mark every once in a while.
 
Just when I thought it was safe . . .

to put the tranny on the car, you guys bailed me out once again. I had just put the flywheel back on, blissfully ignoring any timing marks. After reading this post, I knew without a doubt I had installed the flywheel incorrectly, so I ran out to check. For the life of me, I cannot find a timing mark on the flywheel. Could it have been milled off when it was lightened?

So now, back on bended knee, begging for help. What does the timing mark look like? I can punch a mark back into the flywheel if I know where it needs to be. So, with piston X at TDC, where would the mark be? (As an example, between tooth 15 & 16 clockwise)

I cannot express my thanks enough to this board. One of you guys is shipping me a part -- FREE! Asked me to put what I thought it is worth toward the Red Cross - how cool is that?

Hope I can pay it back - or forward - myself, before too long.

Cheers,

== Mike/Tennessee
 
The flywheel timing mark is a just a little divot drilled in the first step in from the ring gear... Easy to overlook. You want to install so that it is at the top when 1 and 4 pistons are near TDC. That way, it will line up with the timing marks at the litle window at the top of the bell housing, right under the thermostat.

It can be hard to see. Whenever I have the flywheel off, I take a moment to fill the little divot with white enamel, let it dry, and the mark is way easier to spot.

Nothing really awful will happen if you install the flywheel 180 degrees out... You just won't be able to use the flywheel timing mark when setting the valve timing, which sucks a bit because the flywheel marks are more accurate. You can still use the flywheel mark for setting the ignition timing - just hook your timing light up to cylinder 2 or 3.
 
No, it's not...

running. After missing with it for a while I think Tom hit on problem no. 2. No. 1 being that the flywheel is 180 out. I can live with that but FIAT should never have allowed the flywheel to go on both ways. I've never seen that before. Then, I never knew that on an X because of all the clutches I ever put on I never took off a flywheel. Anyway, problem no. 2 is the fact that the pully can go be turned in 3rds around, not the toothed pully that runs the timing belt, but the one with the mark, so some idiot before me must have changed belts and put it back in the first position that worked without ever looking at the marks. It makes sense now that the mark always appeared to be an odd degree off like 120 degrees or so. I'll miss with it again in a week or so and report. By the way, when I thought it was closest by my calculations it did briefly run supplementing with carb cleaner. So it must have been close but I hate having it like that and will not live with it for long. Thanks to all.
 
problem no. 2 is the fact that the pully can go be turned in 3rds around, not the toothed pully that runs the timing belt, but the one with the mark, so some idiot before me must have changed belts and put it back in the first position that worked without ever looking at the marks.
Click to expand...
The outer half of the crank pulley fits only one way, but it can be forced on in the other two orientations. If you take the pulley half off, then reinstall it I think you'll find the correct orientation quite easily. That is how mine is, anyway.
 
Thank Randolph

I'll be taking the pully off soon to see what really happened there. I think I'll find signs of force as you suggested.
 
all of the stock pulleys

both crank and cam, are keyed and only go on one way. If you have a three-bolt sort of pulley, I'd suspect that you have some sort of aftermarket adjustable... can you post a pic?

the 1300/1500 mistake is a possibility too.
 
The outer half of the crank pulley mounts with three nuts. These are almost 120° apart, but not quite, so the pulley-half will fit properly only in one orientation.

Photo from ddoan's picaza album referenced earlier in this thread:

DSCF2297_edited.jpg
 
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The outer...

half is what I was reffering to on the last post but this is very interesting if indeed the three nuts are not equally spaced, this must be the "forcing" someone else mentioned earlier. I'll check this weekend.
 
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