Timing a 1500cc engine

D

Dobbs

Daily Driver
Hi All,
Apologies for bringing up this subject again.
I've had some private correspondence with Don regarding how he set his timing - refer to his photo log at
http://picasaweb.google.com/tractorNstuff/84BertoneX19TimingBeltAndTimingSettings#
which I think is an excellent reference (and nice engine too).

We've decided to throw our discussion open to the forum members to try and clear up this issue. Once we have, we can submit a document to the Wiki for future reference.

First off, my car has a stock standard 1500 engine - no electronic ignition, no FI, no smog stuff - we're not that advanced down here in New Zealand :) Don's engine does have electronic ignition and FI (correct me if I'm wrong Don).

Due to some engine issues I've had, I decided to check my timing based on Don's photos. All was well until I came to photo 16 which threw me. Here Don indicates that the CAM should be moved to align with the pointer on the belt guard while the crank pulley (and flywheel) are at 10 Deg. BTDC (refer photos 12 to 16). To me, this means the valve timing is out in relation to the crankshaft so doesn't sound right. I guess it is a way to possibly get better performance but I've never seen this referenced anywhere (I did trawl through the forum posts regarding timing).

Your comments would be welcome.

Regards,
Kieran
 
Cam timing and ignition timing are separate animals, but they are often confused under the single term "timing."

Cams are ALWAYS timed with the engine at TDC. Only the ignition timing procedure makes use of the the other timing marks. Furthermore, Fiat time their cams with the engine firing on number 4 cylinder.

When setting up a freshly built engine, the cam timing is set first. Once cam timing is done, the ignition timing can be set.

The ignition timing procedure can be further split into setting the "firing order" and finally the "spark timing."

The firing order is set up with the engine at TDC and cam set for firing on No. 4, and simply involves setting the rotor arm to point at No. 4 plug lead by correctly locating the distributor body. This usually involves a trial and error procedure of putting in and lifting out the dissy and turning the rotor shaft until it points where you want it with the dissy fully inserted in the block.

Once the firing order is done, you can now set/adjust the spark timing. This is where the other timing marks (e.g. 10 and 5 degrees BTDC) come into play. The basic spark timing is first set up statically with the engine at 10 or 5 degrees BTDC (depending on your engine type), this will get the engine running. Once it's running, the timing should be fine adjusted using a timing light, which as it happens can be triggered off either No. 1 or No. 4 cylinders.

Hope that helps!

Cheers R
 
Don's little tutorial is excellent, but as you point out picture 16 (although correct in itself) should actually be in position 14, which would make it correct in context with everything else...

Advise him of this and when he changes it, I think that tutorial could make it's way into the "best of" section.

SteveC
 
All readers NOTE 1500 Engine...

Excellent stuff...

Just remember the 1300's Cam Pulley points to a different position... and if I remember it correctly, its straight DOWN at a casting nub.

Dizzy still points to #4 though... and...

When ya go to set the ignition timing on a 1300, Crank on its TDC center mark, dizzy rotor pointing to #1... the Cam Pulley mark will be pointing straight UP!
 
Moved Photos

Hi Keiran,

I hope the discussion has been helpful. For the sake of clarity, I moved photo number 16 to the number 14 position in my photo journal.

In the end, I'm not sure if it makes a lot of difference exactly when the cam mark/pointer is positioned - it is independant of the crank pulley until the belt is fitted.

Unfortunately, this timing issue has had a lot of misinformation attached to it (at least in my limited experience). I hope that my "dummies photo guide" is helpful. For me, it's a lot easier to go from a clear photo than from a gazillion words that try to explain the same thing. I think there's a cliche somewhere in that.

Again, I don't know how to post anything on the Wiki, but I have no objections to my journal being used, there. Perhaps someone can pass along that information.

Don
 
Don, pictures are certainly a good way to make it obvious to someone who has never done the job before, no doubt about that.

There are a couple of other things I would change, in your written notations to go with the pics....just to make sure it is technically correct.

In picture 1 you should make some reference to turning the engine to TDC, which (in the case of an interference engine) removes the chance of pistons and valves colliding, this isn't the case with a stock US spec 1500, but IMO good practice all the same.

Picture 5 refers to prying the belt tensioner tag "towards the front of the engine"... this should read "the back of the car / engine"

Picture 6 also refers to the front of the engine, again this should read "back" of the engine

Picture 10 should make some reference to the scribed alignment mark on the crankshaft timing gear, which should be aligned to the line which is cast into the front crank seal housing...this is the most accurate TDC mark for the crankshaft...as the timing mark reference pointer is actually a moveable item with slightly slotted mounting holes and isn't necessarily 100% correct.

The next best indicator of crank TDC is the flywheel window, but people often get confused with which drilling dimple is actually the reference point on the flywheel. (plus it can be 180 out if the flywheel has been off and reinstalled incorrectly and reference TDC of number 2/3 cylinders instead) so using the TDC timing gear scribe is the best way to find the correct mark on the flywheel.

Picture 15 should make reference to the retensioning procedure at the tensioner bearing...and to be technically correct should show the pointer at zero, not 10 degrees before TDC (so maybe reinsert picture 8 here and move 15 to position 16)

The notation for this picture should read something like

"Once the aligning marks on the cam, flywheel, and crankshaft pulley have all been set to 0 degrees TDC, slip the belt back into position and then loosen the tensioner bearing lock nut allowing the tensioner spring to move the tensioner assembly back to it's running position. Assist the tensioner if needed by applying moderate force to the back of the tensioner assembly tounge to help it move. DO NOT hold the tensioner forward with a lever when retightening the tensioner locknut as this will result in an overtight timing belt, shortening it's service life. Make sure you tighten the tensioner locknut Use the 38mm socket to rotate the crankshaft completely around two times. Repeat the tensioner bearing locknut loosening and retightening proceedure and then rotate the engine a further two times stopping at the 0 degree BTDC mark on the crank pulley finger. Ensure the camshaft timing gear alignment mark is aligned with it's pointer, if it is the timing belt is now correctly phasing the camshaft and crankshaft and is correctly tensioned "

Then you should insert the current picture 15 (showing mark at 10 degrees before TDC) to begin the ignition alignment part of the procedure... which will now be picture 16. The notation should read something like " Now rotate the engine clockwise through another complete revolution and stop with the timing mark at 10 degress before TDC"

The rest of the procedure for rough setting the ignition timing (good enough for startup) is correct.

Just one last thing, as "Papa Tony" mentioned, ensure that it is clear to the reader that this is for the 1500 version of the sohc, the 1300 timing gear references a different position on the front engine mounting.

Otherwise an excellent job and great clear pictures, and this should be in the "best of" section before too long.

SteveC
 
Excellent!

Thanks, Steve.

I will print out your commentary and try to incorporate it into my photo journal. It might take a few days, due to a heavy schedule, but I will do it.

BTW, I can't believe I don't know the difference between "back" and "front." :dunce: Or, is it the Northern vs. Southern Hemisphere thing. I hear that water drains backwards down there. Crazy world, huh?!

Thanks for chipping in. I hope all this has been helpful to Keiran.

Don
 
nit picking...

In repair manuals, as in life usually, the front of the engine is the pulley end. The back of the engine is the transaxle end.

This is referring to the front and back of the engine, which doesn't really change no matter how it's mounted in the car.

Otherwise you should refer to the various sides of the engine as driver's side, forward facing etc. But front and back have specific meaning in engine-related terms.

On an 850 for instance, the front of the engine faces to the rear of the car. In a Lancia ßeta, the front of the engine faces the passenger side of the car.

I hope this makes sense. And I know it's nit-picky, but it's important to be clear and using established terminology is a good way to do that. I think some manuals even have a section that explains this; sort of like establishing which way is north on a map.
 
No problem Don, glad to help, you did the hard work and I'm just helping you with a little "polish".

Timing belt replacement is one of the first things a new X19 owner should learn to do, it's not that difficult either, although easily misunderstood.

When your all done let me know and I'll double / triple check the procedure again, and then we can get one of the moderators to put your effort into the "best of" section... that way when someone asks "how do I do my timing belt?" or " I've just bought an X19 what should I do?" we can simply point them towards your picture tutorial, rather than try and write another 1000 word essay on the subject.

SteveC
 
Your dead right Greg, I was trying to keep it simple... but you are terminologically correct with what your saying... :)

Perhaps it should be referenced as "spark plug side" and "manifold side" to prevent any confusion in this case...drivers / passengers side references are obviously different for LHD and RHD markets... and refering to them as "left or right" gets people confused depending if they are facing the car from the front or the back...and then there are people who are just plain dyslexic.

As a moderator, I'm sure you can arrange for this tutorial to end up in the right place when it's all correct, and thoroughly checked and proof read.

SteveC
 
I like it, with 1 exception

Beginning at photo 19...
I would have set the rotation to the rotor another (approx) 30 degrees further clockwise, so the dizzy cap would be pointing (approx) straight out to the right in Photo 21. Otherwise, I like the effort you put into this write-up. Good detail and nice job Don! :headbang:
 
Thanks, Keiran

You've certainly taken my little tutorial to a higher level. I hope that it proves to be useful to others.

Having it developed in a PDF format makes it easy to print and keep as a handy reference while actually doing a belt change/timing setting. I know that there is a lot of information on the net, but it's not easy taking the computer to the site where the car is being fixed. That's where good, accurate, and clear written documentation is so important.

Thanks, again.

Don
 
As a newbie here this sort of documentation is a huge help.

FWIIW - I have a couple cars of this era from different makes, and I can tell you that the communities that do this sort of thing thrive and the ones that don't wither...

Awesome stuff!
 
Wiki

ddoan said:
Again, I don't know how to post anything on the Wiki, but I have no objections to my journal being used, there. Perhaps someone can pass along that information. Don
Click to expand...

Hi Don,

I can certainly get a wiki page set up for this. I'll let you know when I have this done. In the mean time, the Wiki is pretty easy to author. I'd recommend:
Cheers,
Dom.
 
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Wow! And a Big "Thank You!"

Dom,

That was an amazing job of taking the work that Dobbs and I did on static timing the 1500 cc engine.

I hope it will be useful to others in the future. My original purpose in creating the photo journal was to help ME remember how this proceedure is done. I don't do it all that often, and memory fails. Oddly enough, I've referred to it several time since doing the photos. Sure enough, it would have been difficult without it.

Anyway, congrats on a great job. Maybe I should work on the photos that I did for fuel injector replacement - as well as the pictures I took of changing out a water pump.

Don
 
Thanks to all three of you

For creating the guide, editing it and getting it into the Wiki. :)
 
dcioccarelli said:
Ok, I've done a Wiki page based on Don's photos and Kieran's PDF:

https://[URL='http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=StaticTiming']xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=StaticTiming[/URL]

Feel free to update if it is not accurate of if further clarity or detail is necessary.

Cheers,
Dom.
Click to expand...

That's awesome.

I'd say it's worth adding a note regarding the loosening of the tensioner when performing this operation with the engine in the car - the fact that coolant leaks down the motor freaked me out when I saw the puddle of coolant after doing the t/belt for the first time!!
 
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