Fuel injection Issues.

C

Charles_Thomas

Rookie
I have read all the tech topics That I was able to locate on the FI system, and so far, have been unable to get any results. and i noticed there are quite a few of them. Not wanting to thread jack I am starting a new one. (I apologize for the length)
Here's what I have.
the engine is a ~85 1500, FI, etc. until about 3or 4 months ago she ran perfect, not a hiccup. I cracked a timing belt, replaced it (without rotating, it was lined up to the marks) and now She has issues.
I am getting strong spark at the plugs, but not getting any signal when testing the fuel injectors.
I have rechecked the timing an infinite number of times, and gone through the troubleshooting manual at least 4 times. At the suggestion of the manual, after replacing the main computer with one i purchased from Midwest. Nothing. same as it was before, I also replaced the smaller computer with a known good one that I had laying around here just to be sure. nothing. the relay checks fine, as do the sensors, and I have power to the computer.
all of the wires that I was able to locate (all 3 from the coil, airflow sensor, throttle sensor, temp, pressure, cold start, etc) have no (or the correct) resistance and are free of breaks.
The camshaft marks and the crank mark line up perfect, appear to have cylinder 1 open when viewing through filler spout, and the dist. is pointing to the plug as indicated in the manual. (4)

However, when pouring gas down the intake (in small increments ranging from a fine mist up to straight poured) it does not fire up as it should. But even if it did, there is no Injector power.
yes, I have compression within +/- 10lbs.

I'm lost. I have restored a number of vehicles, and even done a few electrics, but i have NO CLUE why this isn't working. which means I have missed something either blatantly obvious, or am spacing on something. I am lousy with computers. and need help, if you have ANY suggestions, please clue me in.
Also, if anyone can come look at her and get her running well again (I am in oak harbor) I will give you your choice of parts out of my collection, assuming within reason.

To make it worse, i was so confident that the troubleshooting guide had it nailed with the new comp. I quit working while waiting for the parts. I was supposed to Drive her home for leave on the 21st. don't think I am going to make it. (ok, well that's just venting my frustration, sry)
again, sorry for the length, but i think i covered all i know.
-Charlie
 
Hey Charles! Good to know you got the computer in short time - not good that it didn't solve the problems you're having. Just having a quick look throught the troubleshooting guide in the forum wiki http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=FuelInjectionTroubleshooting it would appear that the next step is the infamous double relay. But you state the relay checks out fine. It might be time to recheck all the grounds, especially the ones for the double relay and the EIU. A ground might check out on a continuity test, but not provide ENOUGH of a ground to make it really functional.
Dunno if it's common nounage (not really verbage, is it?) or not, but we always used to refer to the injection computer as the EIU and ignition computer as the ECU so we knew which electronic unit we were talking about.
I know it sounds crazy to anyone that doesn't know this area, but you're only about 10 miles from me - as the crow flies! And it still takes over an hour to get there, maybe two... Is the car on base or do you have it somewhere that a civilian (ok, ex-mil) like me could get to?
 
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all of the wires that I was able to locate (all 3 from the coil,
Click to expand...
There should be 4 to the coil, but you probably did not count the high-voltage wire from the coil to the distributor. I am bringing this up because it is common for one important wire to get unplugged from the coil, see this thread. Having this wire come loose would cause the symptoms you are seeing.

But even if it did, there is no Injector power.
Click to expand...
With the ignition on, there should be steady +12V on one side of all the injectors, and the computer pulses the other lead of each injector to ground. When you say there is no power to the injectors, do you mean they don't have +12V on one side, or do you mean that the pulsing to ground does not take place?
 
Bjorn has a great point. If you did it per manual, you won't see anything from the test light if the ground is bad. But another thing to check (which isn't stated in the trouble-shooting manual) is if you're even getting the +12v at the injector terminals. If you are, then it IS the ground, if not, we'll have to see why - no signal from the comp, broken wire from the comp, grounding out, etc. I still think it might be the ground ring on the cam cover. I was digging through the wiki and found - from the Book of Gregory, Chapter 19, Verse 56:

• Grounds
Grounding issues are the number one electrical issue facing X1/9 cars. The main ground strap from the chassis to the engine/transaxle is often overlooked and is crucial to the completion of the starter circuit.
Other grounds like the small ring terminals on the cam cover are crucial, they supply ground to the injectors and the ECU. --Gregory 19:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, ok, I know it's really a time-stamp....
 
Couple things to check Charles,

Check that there are 2 ground connections that comes from your EFI harness to the top of the cam cover.

Check there there is a "black-covered yellow wire" that comes from your EFI harness to your "-" coil connection.
This is the signal to fire your injectors.

If it worked before, it should work now -especially if you say you have spark.

The only other issue I can think of would be timing. Changing out a belt definitely requires resetting your dizzy.

Good luck!
 
Sorry Charlie! (I just couldn't help myself...)

Anyway...

Are you in the STATE of WASHINGTON... where its COLD all the time and there are 1000's of X1/9 enthusiasts?

Did you say "LEAVE" on the 21st... as in you are in the MILITARY, possibly serving our country and protecting us from harm?

If any of this is true and you are not a high ranking officer with unlimited funds... then may I suggest that you offer up some incentive for others to flock to your rescue.

Usually a case and a couple of pizza's will suffice. You can even try the PX's or Exchanges...

(I firmly believe you have simply missed something that you are now TOO CLOSE to see, especially sober.)

Try posting a PLEA for HELP in the Discussion Forum...

My best, and thanks for your service...
 
Thank you all

Alright then - further explanations -

the car is off base, in my Garage. I have two garages, one for my driver, and one for my toys. the fiat WAS my driver, an now it's a 63 Ford Unibody F100 with a 500 Cadillac. . . not so good on gas, hence why I can't go anywhere to get help, or offer any money to repay assistance. If i can't get the Fiat running, I lack the funding to drive home for leave. I do have an ungodly number of parts.
- I am only an E3. bottom of the pay pillar.
If anyone knows anyone to fix it, Pizza and beer on me. and still a free part if they want it.

- ground, The two bolts currently sit with perfect ground, they were moved to the bolts that mount the cold start valve, and have had no problems for some time. as for enough ground. i don't know how to check that, but as far as i could see, they wires looked ok, i get a bit lost where they enter the firewall and am not sure what i am looking at. also, i get confused between ECU and EIU. not sure why, just always get lost with simple things like that.

- I have positive power to the injectors, just not between the two pins, so no pulsing.
- Touche - 4 wires. (didn't count the high intensity to the dis.) all of which are well connected and transferring power.
- I had a plea for help about my wiring, which was well received, but no one has been able to appear in my driveway as of yet. still offering free parts, food and drink to whomever can fix her.
- could be the timing. I am used to V8s or VWs. this is a completely different setup, the mechanics remains the same, but it's different enough it might help to have someone come look.
 
Could a fuel pump be bad? Maybe a lose wire? I want to share a little story about lose wires and such.

Once upon a time there was kid of 18 or 19 who owned a Dodge Omni that served him well without issue. One day the Omni decided to die. After trouble shooting absolutely everything for 2 weeks strait starting with the alternator and no source of the mysterious issue, an elderly gentleman of great misfortune approached the kid as he was in need of a cheap car for he and his wife. The kid knew that he was simply missing something and the car was still perfect but unfortunately he was out of time due to a move and a couple weeks. The kid made a deal with the older man for only $250 in which he would even accept $25 a week payments. The old man agreed and the car was pushed down hill to the neighbors house. While the kid retreated to his house to ease his sorrows with a few hearty blows from his favorite bong. Not long after and a sound arose. The kid rushes to the window to see the little blue Omni putter up the hill with the little old man behind the wheel. When asked "what was wrong" the old man replied "a nut on the alternator wasn't fully tightened" A f**king nut wasnt tightened!:brow:

Moral of the story: Retrace EVERYTHING and make sure stuff is firstly attached and secondly everything that is attached is tight. GL

PS: One could see this as misfortune for the kid as he now had to buy another car.
But as I see it, it was fate because not only was an old man helped, but the
kid bought his new car. His first fiat X1/9 :headbang:
 
Eastep, great story! Brought back memories about when I watched my first X (a '78) drive away after I sold it. It was a running car, but still. And then I saw it again a year later, still driving, with me trying in vain to chase it down!

Charles, the point he makes is a great one. Recheck all the connections, reclean every ground. Knowing where you're at with it, I would start with the ring terminals on the cam cover - or in your case, the cold start injector. Anything the grounds would be in contact with is aluminum and can corrode to where it doesn't like to conduct electricity without looking any different than when it was doing a good job of grounding the circuit.

Another check that can be done is to take a powered circuit tester (looks like a screwdriver with a cable and a AA battery inside) and attach the cable to ground (cam cover, strut mount, etc) and the pointy end of the tester to the ground side of the injector terminal. When the engine is cranked, it should flash as the control unit pulses the ground end of the circuit. If you still get nothing, then move to the computer itself. The one inside the spare tire well is the FI computer. Make sure the car is off and disconnect the wiring harness from the computer. Check terminals 5, 16 and 17 **OF THE HARNESS** for continuity to ground. Take a look at page 12 of the FI Troubleshooting Guide in the forum wiki to see what I mean. http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=FuelInjectionTroubleshooting

If none of this works, I'll see if I can get up there tomorrow after work. Have to make sure there's someone to watch the kids in the evening...

EDIT - wanted to make sure the test light wasn't hooked to the computer
 
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Gregory, on a day like today you should be at home (or the local watering hole!) with friends and family!! Talk about dedication to the community - wanting to get out and help a fellow X-head on this of all days! :headbang:
 
Well technically...

... my birthday is tomorrow. But we celebrate with friends tonight. Tomorrow is for celebrating with family. I've been told to be out of the house for some of tomorrow as something is going on I'm not supposed to know about.

If Charles wasn't 3 hours away but merely 1 or 2 I'd stop over to see if I could help. It has to be something simple but easy to overlook.

Too bad it's so hard to diagnose over the web...
 
And if I knew anything helpful about FI...

I'd be there too. Unfortunately, any little knowledge I have about getting Fiats running is limited to carbed engines. Google maps says 100 miles with the ferry ride, or 123 miles via Deception pass, 2 1/2 hours either way, so popping up there after work isn't gonna work. Now if you were to get transfered to McChord, then we're talking about 5 minutes...

You've definitely come to the right place for help, though. There's more collective knowledge of Fiats here than anywhere else on the planet. Just be patient and thorough, and your perseverence will pay off.
 
I am sorry for your loss.

Eastep, your story saddens me. I once had a 71 Buick GSX clone. sold it for $1000 because i couldn't fix it. The connection spring between the Dist. cap and the rotor was bad. :mallet:
on the other hand, i bought a 75 Buick for $500 because the Ign. Coil was no good.

The fuel pump is on a lone circuit running to a switch ~on the dash. It is a marine grade pump that bellows out gas at a good rate. courtesy of P.O.
I've been through the car hundreds of times in the last few months, and have decided I need a fresh pair of eyes. Mine don't appear to be working. I will check again tonight though.
I will also run through the troubleshooting guide again with my test light, and VOM.
Pyrraxis, I will most likely take you up on your offer. If you can find someone for your children, i welcome your assistance. I will go run the test right now, and PM you about the outcome.
Thank you all for your help and offers!
budgetzagato - Happy Birthday.
 
now i'm confused...

Well, it would appear that both side of the FI terminal have power when the ignition is on... which is odd, I think. I do not know much about FI, but i am fairly certain one of the sides should have charge, and the other shouldn't. am i wrong? or right? and where do i go from here. . .
 
With the fuel injectors plugged in that is normal because the power flows through the injector coil. If you unplug all the injectors you should have power on one side and nothing on the other.You can test for pulsing with a test light or noid light.

You need to unplug all (or at least the both injectors on the same circuit you are testing) because the power will flow through the other injector coil to the ground side. So even if you are testing with the injector unplugged you will still get power on both sides if the others are plugged in.
 
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Matthew has it dead on. I was curious so I rigged up a test light (paper clip ends soldered onto a dash light harness) and checked out how my FI behaves. Pulled the HT coil wire, unplugged just one injector and plugged the paper clip ends into the injector connections. I had to REALLY crane my neck around to see the light while cranking the engine. I think having the steering column dropped/loose helped make that bit of contortionism possible. Got a weak pulsing/flashing from the test light. Then I checked each terminal for voltage. With the ignition on, the light came up bright on both of them. I plugged it back in, put the coil wire back on and fired it up. Still runs! I think my car is settling in to being a test mule for now. :music: I think I'll head back out and check the grounds from the computer...
 
in your first post, you mention that adding fuel does not make it start. to me, that indicates something could be amiss in the timing since that is the system you worked with
 
Timing

I wondered about that too, since you changed the belt. I don't know how many times I've heard of someone's car not starting, only to later figure out that they were off by one tooth on the belt. I think I would consider moving the belt one tooth in either direction and see what happens.
 
+1 for the timing recheck....

The aux gear that drives the distributor is REALLY easy to spin whilst replacing the belt. Have you rechecked that the rotor is pointing at the correct plug wire? maybe try loosening the distributor and turning it a bit from side to side to see if you get any firing. Maybe try pointing the rotor to the #1 wire instead of #4.
 
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