Manifold flanges

Looks like the file I worked from is less than perfect, perhaps some of the problem is scaling in the translation. I must say I like the way the parts look as objects though it seems the bottom rib that connects the outer exhaust ports could be a bit larger to make it better.

Before you drilled out the holes for the fasteners were the holes concentric with the head holes or were they also outboard on the outer ones and inboard on the inner ones? I am just trying to understand is the base file off or is it happening as I translated the PDF into a DXF using Illustrator. It may also be why the circles are segmented though it seems unlikely, it may have been in the base file and the way it was created.

Do you run software that can look at more than just a DXF or is that its only format? At work we use Autodesk Fusion (in the design group, engineering uses ProE) which can output a number of alternative file types and has a CAM module (the free version might be worth looking at as our model shop just changed over to Fusion for the CAM side of the program).

In any case thank you for trying the part and burning (literally) a chunk of your steel sheet.

Karl
 
kmead said:
Looks like the file I worked from is less than perfect, perhaps some of the problem is scaling in the translation. I must say I like the way the parts look as objects though it seems the bottom rib that connects the outer exhaust ports could be a bit larger to make it better.

Before you drilled out the holes for the fasteners were the holes concentric with the head holes or were they also outboard on the outer ones and inboard on the inner ones? I am just trying to understand is the base file off or is it happening as I translated the PDF into a DXF using Illustrator. It may also be why the circles are segmented though it seems unlikely, it may have been in the base file and the way it was created.

Do you run software that can look at more than just a DXF or is that its only format? At work we use Autodesk Fusion (in the design group, engineering uses ProE) which can output a number of alternative file types and has a CAM module (the free version might be worth looking at as our model shop just changed over to Fusion for the CAM side of the program).

In any case thank you for trying the part and burning (literally) a chunk of your steel sheet.

Karl
Click to expand...

The file is not far off but I think the transition to PDF and back probably did some damage to the scale. making the bottom rib wider would be an easy change once I have the 3D model. I haven't done much with importing files to work on I have always designed the part to start with, I'm hoping I can import the outline of the flange and then locate the holes in it. I can jig up the head on my mill and use the DRO to measure the hole locations and that should be as accurate as we need, recreating the outline of the flange would time consuming so hopefully I can come up with a way to use the one you converted.

I didn't notice which way the holes were off before I drilled them, I should have looked closer...

Here are the file types I can import to work with, I use Alibre Design which is a 3D parametric modeling program, 3D systems bought out Alibre and the new product is called Geomagic. The old Alibre is not up to the standards of the new stuff but I own it and don't want to have to learn a new platform now, Alibre does what I need and is actually quite easy and fast to put out a part.
20170807_133642.jpg


I may look into Fusion in the future, I just don't have time now, to many projects running concurrently. My machine shop is hopefully my retirement income so anything I can do to create parts people want at an affordable price is good for all of us besides I was going to do this soon anyway.

I have the head i borrowed from Jeff cleaned up and all but 1 stud removed, after 2 days of heat and pb blaster it finally gave up and broke off.:(

I have a clutch and timing belt job on a subaru to get out this week and the inlaws are in town but I'll get that stud out and get it measured soon.
 
Thanks. Looks like most any file will work, Fusion can output most of those.

I will play with the original to see if it can be salvaged. I will also make a parametric part that I can easily adjust the various parameters of the holes and then let the outside outline float based on the various holes for fasteners and port diameters. Once I set it up that way any adjustments will be easy to perform without signficant effort or redrawing.

Karl
 
I got the head on the mill and removed the broken studs, the 1 I broke and the other 2 that were already broken. I used a 1/4" end mill to plunge through the remaining stud then moved it in .002" increments both ways on each axis until I cut through to the minimum diameter of the stud, then I could use a pick to get the end of the thread loose and peal it out.

First pic is the whole thread out and the second is the thread starting to come out.
20170808_173448.jpg

20170808_173320.jpg
 
bpimm said:
I got the head on the mill and removed the broken studs, the 1 I broke and the other 2 that were already broken. I used a 1/4" end mill to plunge through the remaining stud then moved it in .002" increments both ways on each axis until I cut through to the minimum diameter of the stud, then I could use a pick to get the end of the thread loose and peal it out.

First pic is the whole thread out and the second is the thread starting to come out.
View attachment 4034
View attachment 4033
Click to expand...

That is some 'fine' machine work :p
 
Anyone know about Lada's? I know they began as pretty much a copy of Fiat's, but I think the engines are different? Are the manifold/head interface dimensions the same as our SOHC's? I found these flanges for Lada applications:
Exhaust...
s-l300 (1).jpg


Intake...
Lada 2108 intake flange.png


What's the odds they are the same?
 
I wouldn't suggest You anything from Ladas even if it is exactly same part. Of course there could be a good quality spare parts.

But history shows that in soviet union everything and a specially all cars what was made, are in a very poorly quality.All parts which was ok, was assembled in cars. And all factory bracks later were sold as spare parts.

I have hade a lot of bad experiences with what has been made in Russia.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I have heard that about Lada factory made items. However these flanges are not a factory made part, they are custom cut steel plates made by a after-market company. Do you find the same quality issues with this type of after-market or craftsman made stuff?
 
dcioccarelli said:
Ladas used the 124 engine, so the twin cam.
Click to expand...
Some models did however they have others that use a SOHC that appears to be very similar to the one we have. According to Wiki their SOHC engines are not direct clones but are based on the same basic Fiat SOHC design. Therefore it is possible that some accessories will fit. For example, if the heads have the same port and manifold mounting configuration as ours then those manifold flanges I showed should work. Take a look at the pictures I posted, they don't look like the 124's, because they fit a SOHC engine. Hoping someone with Lada experience will know about the manifolds for sure.
 
I can't deny my stereotypes abot RUS manufacturers, but they are based on my own experiences, and none of them is good.

Could You please send me a link who sells those flanges, I could try to find out will them fit to 128 engine from LADA enthusiast's forum in my country.

....
 
mkmini said:
they are based on my own experiences, and none of them is good
Click to expand...
Experience is the best way to learn.

Good video, I don't need to understand the language to see the obvious quality issues. But I must say, aside from the quality of the materials and build I kind of like the style of it..funky old world design (I like odd-ball stuff).

Thanks for your offer to look into the products. I will send you a message with the info through your profile page. :)
 
After breaking my edge finder and waiting for another one to get here I got some more done on mapping the head outlet side, I have a rough model of the hole pattern that should be plenty accurate, I haven't printed it and test fitted it yet, for what we want. I'll work on the flanges next.
Head Hole Pattern.JPG

The top edge is the head to block mating surface and the right side is the thermostat mounting flange, the other two sides are there to make a box and are not referenced to anything. More to come.

Karl were you able to get anywhere on the outline of the flange? If not I think I can duplicate it fairly easily.
 
bpimm said:
After breaking my edge finder and waiting for another one to get here I got some more done on mapping the head outlet side, I have a rough model of the hole pattern that should be plenty accurate, I haven't printed it and test fitted it yet, for what we want. I'll work on the flanges next.
View attachment 4487
The top edge is the head to block mating surface and the right side is the thermostat mounting flange, the other two sides are there to make a box and are not referenced to anything. More to come.

Karl were you able to get anywhere on the outline of the flange? If not I think I can duplicate it fairly easily.
Click to expand...

Could you attach the file or email it to me at karlmead at gmail dot com ? Send me a native file and stp or a dxf thanks and Inwill overlay the outline for you if you want.

I wanted to base the outline on the hole centers for the ports so the ports could change size without having to change the outline.
 
Excellent work! Thanks to everyone for continuing to work on this, looking forward to the outcome.
 
bpimm said:
After breaking my edge finder and waiting for another one to get here I got some more done on mapping the head outlet side, I have a rough model of the hole pattern that should be plenty accurate, I haven't printed it and test fitted it yet, for what we want. I'll work on the flanges next.
View attachment 4487
The top edge is the head to block mating surface and the right side is the thermostat mounting flange, the other two sides are there to make a box and are not referenced to anything. More to come.

Karl were you able to get anywhere on the outline of the flange? If not I think I can duplicate it fairly easily.
Click to expand...
I can go back and reimport the outside edge and turn it into a solid model that you could use as a Boolean to trim your box to.
 
Surprised I did not get reported for it (inside joke).

Guess I need to make better use of the icons (although a guy my age does not understand what most of the icons mean) or steal Papa Tony's signature "Ha!" to make it more clear when I'm being funny. :)

By the way, I'm being funny now. [Think I'll just make that my 'signature line' to give me blanket coverage]. I'm being funny again, please don't report me. O.K., that was a joke as well.
 
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