Looking for more info on honda b16/18 swap.

[Dr.Jeff]

After a quick review of the link. It seems to me a 'basic' B-series swap could be done very reasonably (both in terms of expense and 'doability'). My mild turbo upgrade of the stock SOHC engine is more work and money that that. Complete good condition Honda cars (with B engines) are dirt cheap. If you know what years/models have the suggested combination of shift and clutch linkage, etc, it would give you most everything you need - aside from the custom axles and some misc universal items. That is also assuming you have basic fabrication skills, but I can't imagine considering an engine swap if you don't (unless you have more money than skills and pay someone to do it). Granted the regular B-series engines aren't extreme performance units, but still a HUGE improvement over the Fiat lump (and trans). Plus they have plenty of potential for power increases if you desire that in the future. Surely seems a whole lot less expense than the usual Honda K swap (if you aren't looking for crazy horse power). More work, but maybe about the same cost as a stock Fiat rebuild (for engine and trans)?

I fully realize that thinking about something like this is MUCH easier than actually doing it. And as noted, I'm not planning anything like it...I'm just throwing out thoughts for discussion. Please tell me the pros and cons to this over a K swap.

 

[kmead]

Horsepower and torque. You know, the basis for all testosterone driven poor choices in the lives of men.

Newer, more powerful, likely slightly better balance with the engine offset opposite to the driver. The MWB kit makes it relatively painless in terms of parts and pieces. Negative, costs much more, requires greater body changes to the X.

Odie says if you have the money do it (choose the K series swap).

 

[autox19]

I did this quickie write up a little while ago. http://autox19.com/blog/index.php/2018/05/08/to-b-or-not-to-b-or-go-with-k/

I will be happy to chime in with specific questions as well. The 2 biggest issues I had was with cooling and shifter. Both of those are gold now. We had a huge discussion here on the cooling. The shifting is I use a cable shifter on the rod b trans. (Thank you subaru sand rails)

Odie

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I will admit to knowing nothing about Japanese powertrains nor X1/9 engine swaps. But after reviewing a few of the K swaps, and now a B swap, I've observed the following:

The total B swap costs less than just the install kit for the K. Not to mention the extremely higher cost of the K engine itself. Yoo could almost buy several X's and B-swap them all for the cost of one K-swap.
There are significantly more inexpensive, B-engined, complete donor cars to choose from. Giving you almost everything you need to do the swap.
The K with the install kit still requires more modification/fabrication than the B without one.
Both require some of the same basic mods/alterations, but the K appears to be much more work overall.
The B has considerably more power than the Fiat engine, and the Honda trans is also far superior to the Fiat unit.
The B swap costs roughly about the same as a stock rebuild of the Fiat engine and trans.
If you want more from the B, there are a boat load of turbo kits available that are pretty much bolt on. Based on what I've seen they seem to do quite well with a turbo on a stock engine, only requiring a retune (unless you want to go to crazy boost levels). And the fully engineered / all inclusive turbo kits are inexpensive, especially when compared to the added price of a stock K engine alone. You can even find a fully built turbo'ed B Honda (again, complete donor car) for little money. Let that teenager spend the money building it up, before he learns he got his girlfriend pregnant and has to urgently sell it.
Considering the X1/9, with or without a swap and/or everything else you can throw at it, has no market value, it makes more sense to do the affordable - and easier - swap (if you are going to do one). At least to me.

I'm sure I could continue along these lines. But it does not matter. Those who will actually do a swap (not me) will have to determine their own justification to do whatever it is they desire. But I am very surprised how relatively easy and inexpensive the B swap is in relation to any other X1/9 swap I've reviewed. The bang for the buck seems a no brainer...if you desire doing a swap at all.

 

[autox19]

I will admit to knowing nothing about Japanese powertrains nor X1/9 engine swaps. But after reviewing a few of the K swaps, and now a B swap, I've observed the following:

The total B swap costs less than just the install kit for the K. Not to mention the extremely higher cost of the K engine itself. Yoo could almost buy several X's and B-swap them all for the cost of one K-swap.
There are significantly more inexpensive, B-engined, complete donor cars to choose from. Giving you almost everything you need to do the swap.
The K with the install kit still requires more modification/fabrication than the B without one.
Both require some of the same basic mods/alterations, but the K appears to be much more work overall.
The B has considerably more power than the Fiat engine, and the Honda trans is also far superior to the Fiat unit.
The B swap costs roughly about the same as a stock rebuild of the Fiat engine and trans.
If you want more from the B, there are a boat load of turbo kits available that are pretty much bolt on. Based on what I've seen they seem to do quite well with a turbo on a stock engine, only requiring a retune (unless you want to go to crazy boost levels). And the fully engineered / all inclusive turbo kits are inexpensive, especially when compared to the added price of a stock K engine alone. You can even find a fully built turbo'ed B Honda (again, complete donor car) for little money. Let that teenager spend the money building it up, before he learns he got his girlfriend pregnant and has to urgently sell it.
Considering the X1/9, with or without a swap and/or everything else you can throw at it, has no market value, it makes more sense to do the affordable - and easier - swap (if you are going to do one). At least to me.

I'm sure I could continue along these lines. But it does not matter. Those who will actually do a swap (not me) will have to determine their own justification to do whatever it is they desire. But I am very surprised how relatively easy and inexpensive the B swap is in relation to any other X1/9 swap I've reviewed. The bang for the buck seems a no brainer...if you desire doing a swap at all.

And you nailed exactly why my x has a b16 and not a k as far as your relatively easy. Now that I have done it, i could do it again and it would take a few weekends.


Odie

 

[Dr.Jeff]

as far as your relatively easy

Honestly, my turbo conversion for the stock 1500 SOHC engine has been more work. If I did it over, I think I'd go with a B swap instead. For about the same money and work I'd have a drivetrain that is much more reliable and more power.

 

[lookforjoe]

I believe B series still ran cap, rotor wires type ignition, no crank signal . I would never spend all that time converting to install ANY engine that still relies on such old tech

 

[autox19]

I believe B series still ran cap, rotor wires type ignition, no crank signal . I would never spend all that time converting to install ANY engine that still relies on such old tech

Can be converted to coil on plugs. Seen several kits. The b series that were obd1 had crank sensors (obd2 specifies it) but all of the tuning ecu/software for the b uses obd1 which doesnt use a crank sensor.
Yeah old tech. I run into that all the time In my brain. The "newer" tech engine in my car is 30 years old (jdm.b16 built 1999) lol.

Odie

 

[Dr.Jeff]

They are all light years ahead of the Fiat SOHC.

 

[autox19]

But imo "vtec yo!" Will never sound as good as my 1500 with dual dcnfs and a super Trapp

 

[lookforjoe]

Can be converted to coil on plugs. Seen several kits. The b series that were obd1 had crank sensors (obd2 specifies it) but all of the tuning ecu/software for the b uses obd1 which doesnt use a crank sensor.
Yeah old tech. I run into that all the time In my brain. The "newer" tech engine in my car is 30 years old (jdm.b16 built 1999) lol.

Odie

Before I forget - I couldn't find a thread where you specifcally did the B series install. I remember a bunch talking about aspects post-install, but couldn't find one where you did the figuring-out part?

 

[autox19]

After 8+ years of life interrupting and issues, I dont think I ever really posted here. I know I retro posted a few updates. on my site. But I am really really bad at documenting (ask my boss)
Here are a few
http://autox19.com/blog/index.php/2017/03/

NOTE! The cooling system is NOT correct in the following link I am going to edit it tomorrow. I will edit this once I fix it. Basically. The heater circuit is just a loop and the return line has a tee going to the expansion.
http://autox19.com/blog/index.php/2018/04/17/8-year-winter-project-coming-to-light/

http://autox19.com/blog/index.php/2017/11/18/fiat-x19-honda-b-series-b16b18-rough-guide/

Odie

 

[Rod Midkiff]

Loving it.

Just got done reading. And thinking very strongly about this swap, As it is a LOT less spendy. And it looks like with a turbo this motor is not that far behind the K motor.!!

 

[Dr.Jeff]

As it is a LOT less spendy. And it looks like with a turbo this motor is not that far behind the K motor.

I'm with you Rod. And turbo kits for them are plentiful, with every possible component choice and price range. You can buy the whole "B" powered Honda car, which includes all the extra Honda stuff needed, for less than $2000....even less than $1000 if you don't mind more miles on it. If I intended to turbo it, then I'd want the higher mileage unit and rebuild it as a turbo motor. Otherwise I'd get one with a little less wear and run it as is; it's not like a swapped X is going to get a ton of miles put on it, because I'd be building it as a play car rather than a daily commuter. When you finish taking everything you need from the Honda, then resell what's left of the car to the kid down the street for $500 (so he can put his 600 HP turbo "K" engine in it). I bet you could almost do the whole swap for around $2-3,000.

 

[autox19]

I actually bought my jdm b16 already swapped in a civic for 1700. Drove it home so I knew it ran Was in limp mode due to the chip not being programmed right and I knew that is what it was. Cost wise it is hard to beat.

I reread what I wrote. Dang i cant type. I am fixing the stuff tomorrow. And fix the cooling stuff to get it right as well as add more info on the cable to rod shif conversion.

Odie

 

[Dr.Jeff]

When I took a quick peek on CraigsList, there were several wrecked Civics with hopped up engines for sale. Salvage title due to the wreck, but the mechanical aspects weren't hurt. Dirt cheap.

 

[Chris in Canada]

When I took a quick peek on CraigsList, there were several wrecked Civics with hopped up engines for sale. Salvage title due to the wreck, but the mechanical aspects weren't hurt. Dirt cheap.

Are there any templates available for any needed cutting for either the b or k swap?

 

[kmead]

Are there any templates available for any needed cutting for either the b or k swap?

No, not exactly.

Mainly pictures of what people have done. Which have been pretty voluminous.

The K swap is much more involved as you can see from Hussien’s current thread and Roger’s nearly complete thread. Hussein is currently trying to Grok out the engine bay modifications he will be making to the structure of the car.

There haven’t been a lot of B series swaps shown on the forum, though a fair number have been done.

Engine swaps in general are extremely difficult. There is a great deal of invention required, even for the K for which there is a partial kit for changing over. There are brackets to be made, linkages to parse out and with many engines a great deal of wiring. Welding is generally required to make parts and add bodywork back in to support the engine and the rest of the car’s structure.

I cannot tell you how many cars I have come across in my life that someone has started an engine swap with the it never completed. Eventually folks give up when they find something they don’t know how to solve, the car sits for years apart and the incomplete car is pushed out of the garage and into the weeds to molder away completely.

Think carefully before you embark, this will take four times as long as you can imagine and will cost a great deal more than just the engine and transmission. 2-5k for the engine and transmission and then another 10-15k in parts, fabrication and so on depending on the swap you are trying to complete. Unless you are Hussein, he will get his done for 29.95...Riiiiigghht... (an old Earl Scheib reference)

 

[Chris in Canada]

No, not exactly.

Mainly pictures of what people have done. Which have been pretty voluminous.

The K swap is much more involved as you can see from Hussien’s current thread and Roger’s nearly complete thread. Hussein is currently trying to Grok out the engine bay modifications he will be making to the structure of the car.

There haven’t been a lot of B series swaps shown on the forum, though a fair number have been done.

Engine swaps in general are extremely difficult. There is a great deal of invention required, even for the K for which there is a partial kit for changing over.

I cannot tell you how many cars I have come across in my life that someone has started an engine swap with the it never completed. Eventually folks give up when they find something they don’t know how to solve, the car sits for years apart and the incomplete car is pushed out of the garage and into the weeds to molder away completely. Think carefully before you embark.

My neighbor has a k20X that Midwest built for him. It’s the blue one you see on Matt’s home page. He called me up to go for a spin last spring and shockingly, we pulled over and he said,”you drive”!!! I didn’t push it even with him saying “give’er”! My x was a little less exciting after that. I’ve done several swaps, no problem, it’s just a whole lot easier when you have a “map”!!!

 

[kmead]

My neighbor has a k20X that Midwest built for him. It’s the blue one you see on Matt’s home page. He called me up to go for a spin last spring and shockingly, we pulled over and he said,”you drive”!!! I didn’t push it even with him saying “give’er”! My x was a little less exciting after that. I’ve done several swaps, no problem, it’s just a whole lot easier when you have a “map”!!!

Well, as you have already established your gluttony for punishment

My suggestion would be to read all the K swaps on the forum as well as reading the PDF for the B swap to range the work required. I don’t know what information Midwest offers with the kit in terms of what cutting etc is involved.

In general the B swap requires less body modification and will cost less.