Servo vs booster

No front to rear bias valve ever came in Scorpions. Series2 Montecarlo perhaps.

If there was a magical front rear Lancia bias valve, still the better option is an adjustable proportioning valve from Wilwood and mounted in reach of driver. Every car is different even between same models; from gross weight, weight ratio, tire compound, variable air pressures,.....and then driving on different surfaces, road temperatures and weather conditions. It'd be like doing all the work installing AC in your car with only one temp setting versus being able to blow between cool and ice cold.
 
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Are you getting a logon screen? I set up the website and it’s just a simple site, I hope

As I have never attended one of your events I am not a member :)

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Okay thanks for that, something is up. I contacted the hosting company. I'll let you know when its back up.
 
Parts manuals are always nice things to have given they show the relationship of parts, part numbers and clues to how things really work.

Below is the S1 Monte Carlo braking system for the front showing the two output MC master cylinder with a single line going back to the servo, a return line and then the splitter to each front caliper.

E8261562-7360-47EF-805A-8EDD6F2EDD7E.png


This next image shows the rear circuit with an inset of a detail for the American market Scorpion front brake system which adds the brake failure warning switch 4354561 with a splitter to the rear brakes with lines to the individual calipers, one from the splitter and the other from the pressure switch.

B527AE62-6DCF-4285-9447-5144B16EACC1.png


As shown in this image which unfortunately intermingles the clutch lines:

EEBD4C15-5DF1-404D-B0BB-0B30DC896491.gif


The Series 2 Monte Carlo brake system is simpler still but does add a pressure limiting device for the rear calipers only and is part number 4469037 referred to as a brake balancer on various websites. I have not found one online but somewhere I am sure there is one…

2852C87A-4BBE-4081-9BC1-8FFC5902A07D.png


Lastly a close up of the unit

611029CF-720E-438C-8AD2-E60FA4363AB4.png


From this one may conclude Lancia went to a system which still ensures the fronts still lock first and relies on the human being acting as the ABS system by modulating the braking based on feedback from the system.

When I do end up with a Scorpion someday, I would be likely to use the parts Monte Hospital offers to get rid of the front splitter (this allows using the standard X1/9 3 port master cylinder), upgrade the brakes to as similar to S2 specification in regards to disks and then put an inline adjustable Wilwood proportioning valve in the rear circuit to match what Lancia did on the S2 cars.

Karl
 
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My old brake setup. I shipped a front hub and rotor to Todd at TCE Brakes and he took care of the rest. Scott Hayes another Scorpion nut recommended him.
Pedal Assembly with TMH modifications
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Parts manuals are always nice things to have given they show the relationship of parts, part numbers and clues to how things really work.

Below is the S1 Monte Carlo braking system for the front showing the two output MC master cylinder with a single line going back to the servo, a return line and then the splitter to each front caliper.

View attachment 55320

This next image shows the rear circuit with an inset of a detail for the American market Scorpion front brake system which adds the brake failure warning switch 4354561 with a splitter to the rear brakes with lines to the individual calipers, one from the splitter and the other from the pressure switch.

View attachment 55319

As shown in this image which unfortunately intermingles the clutch lines:

View attachment 55322

The Series 2 Monte Carlo brake system is simpler still but does add a pressure limiting device for the rear calipers only and is part number 4469037 referred to as a brake balancer on various websites. I have not found one online but somewhere I am sure there is one…

View attachment 55318

Lastly a close up of the unit

View attachment 55321

From this one may conclude Lancia went to a system which still ensures the fronts still lock first and relies on the human being acting as the ABS system by modulating the braking based on feedback from the system.

When I do end up with a Scorpion someday, I would be likely to use the parts Monte Hospital offers to get rid of the front splitter (this allows using the standard X1/9 3 port master cylinder), upgrade the brakes to as similar to S2 specification in regards to disks and then put an inline adjustable Wilwood proportioning valve in the rear circuit to match what Lancia did on the S2 cars.

Karl
Looks like this place may have them http://lancia.cc/article/Montecarlo/Montecarlo+S2/Brakes/4469037.html or not based on what "unrecoverable" means
 
Parts manuals are always nice things to have given they show the relationship of parts, part numbers and clues to how things really work.

Below is the S1 Monte Carlo braking system for the front showing the two output MC master cylinder with a single line going back to the servo, a return line and then the splitter to each front caliper.

View attachment 55320

This next image shows the rear circuit with an inset of a detail for the American market Scorpion front brake system which adds the brake failure warning switch 4354561 with a splitter to the rear brakes with lines to the individual calipers, one from the splitter and the other from the pressure switch.

View attachment 55319

As shown in this image which unfortunately intermingles the clutch lines:

View attachment 55322

The Series 2 Monte Carlo brake system is simpler still but does add a pressure limiting device for the rear calipers only and is part number 4469037 referred to as a brake balancer on various websites. I have not found one online but somewhere I am sure there is one…

View attachment 55318

Lastly a close up of the unit

View attachment 55321

From this one may conclude Lancia went to a system which still ensures the fronts still lock first and relies on the human being acting as the ABS system by modulating the braking based on feedback from the system.

When I do end up with a Scorpion someday, I would be likely to use the parts Monte Hospital offers to get rid of the front splitter (this allows using the standard X1/9 3 port master cylinder), upgrade the brakes to as similar to S2 specification in regards to disks and then put an inline adjustable Wilwood proportioning valve in the rear circuit to match what Lancia did on the S2 cars.

Karl
I found this compensator/proportioning valve on Bayless https://www.midwest-bayless.com/p-19321-791461-brake-compensator-lancia-beta-all-new.aspx Although it is listed only for the Lancia Zagato Coupe (1979-82) and Lancia Coupe, HPE, Sedan, Wagon (1975-78), I suspect it could be added when doing the servo delete.
 
I found this compensator/proportioning valve on Bayless https://www.midwest-bayless.com/p-19321-791461-brake-compensator-lancia-beta-all-new.aspx Although it is listed only for the Lancia Zagato Coupe (1979-82) and Lancia Coupe, HPE, Sedan, Wagon (1975-78), I suspect it could be added when doing the servo delete.
No you wouldn’t want to use that one. It requires a number of linkages and is more of an on off switch than what you need. The mechanism that one uses relies on the rear suspension rising under hard braking with a torsion bar mechanism to transfer that motion to this valve.

I don’t own a Scorpacarlo but an X with similar suspension doesn’t dive at the front nor rise as much in the rear as the vehicles that use that compensator do (this part is used on the 124 as well which I do own which has notable rear suspension rise under hard braking). Much of the value of this solution is in its use on a vehicle that has notable differences in the load in the car, ie rear seat passengers and luggage. With rear passengers the rear wheels have more traction, less rise and the compensator doesn’t kick in giving greater stopping power with the greater load with added traction on the rear wheels enabled by the added weight.

The more appropriate solution would be an adjustable proportioning valve which one could set and forget after doing some testing to verify appropriate action by the rear brakes.
 
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