Lancia Scorpion #1733 -- new owner, project start
- Thread starter RJ80
- Start date
carl
True Classic
Usually TC motors are a dime a dozen, so much so I have had to throw some away as I had no room to store them and no one wanted them locally. I just would not bother trying to get that piston out to save the motor. Not unusual for one valve to be open when the motor last stopped and if an intake valve, who knows how much gas might have eventually dribbled in there.
I had a TC motor that smelled terrible when I pulled the intake manifold off. When I pulled the head it was clear some insect had crawled in through the intake manifold, through the open valve and nested on the piston. The piston was terminally stuck with whatever biological goo that insect nest had created no to mention stinking up the whole garage.
I had a TC motor that smelled terrible when I pulled the intake manifold off. When I pulled the head it was clear some insect had crawled in through the intake manifold, through the open valve and nested on the piston. The piston was terminally stuck with whatever biological goo that insect nest had created no to mention stinking up the whole garage.
RJ80
True Classic
Still deciding what to do, engine wise. The NOS Scorpion short block has become available to me again, so there's that option for several hundred dollars. There's also a running, bone-stock Scorpion engine about 500 miles north of me with compression said to be ranging between 120-140 and said to be in good general shape, but needing some seals, timing belt, etc.
Think I'm probably going to get the NOS engine regardless, because when I'll never see another and it will have a brand new block, crank, rods and oil pump which will always be in demand if I don't use it for my performance build. Meanwhile, I'll pull the existing engine and see what I end up with on disassembly.
Anyone got a cheap twin-cam valve tool they'd like to sell me? I know the vendors have them new, just seeing if someone's got a used extra they'd like to part with.
Think I'm probably going to get the NOS engine regardless, because when I'll never see another and it will have a brand new block, crank, rods and oil pump which will always be in demand if I don't use it for my performance build. Meanwhile, I'll pull the existing engine and see what I end up with on disassembly.
Anyone got a cheap twin-cam valve tool they'd like to sell me? I know the vendors have them new, just seeing if someone's got a used extra they'd like to part with.
RJ80
True Classic
Well, it's been a few weeks since the last update. I ended up striking a deal on the new-old-stock Lancia Scorpion short block and it was delivered yesterday. I'll be getting it on a stand tonight so I can begin tearing it down. Since this is a engine built by the factory a few decades ago, I'll be replacing all seals and just checking that everything looks to be in good nick. Being brand new, the bearings and such should be fine but I'll verify when I get there. I'll be replacing the stock flat-top pistons with the 9.8:1 pistons I bought from AR Riambi, so if anyone needs a NOS set of 8:1 flat tops, let me know. Photos of the engine below.
Also ordered the tools I'll need to start tearing down my existing cylinder head in preparation for the machine shop and I've got a NOS set of Abarth valves on their way. Not expecting any real performance gain, as they are stock size -- just bought them for the "cool factor." I ended up deciding against big valves as there are no shops with the experience to do this properly that I know of in Southern California and a poorly done job would only hurt performance.
Also ordered the tools I'll need to start tearing down my existing cylinder head in preparation for the machine shop and I've got a NOS set of Abarth valves on their way. Not expecting any real performance gain, as they are stock size -- just bought them for the "cool factor." I ended up deciding against big valves as there are no shops with the experience to do this properly that I know of in Southern California and a poorly done job would only hurt performance.
motoTrooper
True Classic
There's Costa Mesa R&D Automotive Machine Shop, I've been watching quite a number of their engine machining videos on Youtube. They've been posting under the "fiatnutz" channel for the last decade, recently now they post under the "JO EL" channel. There is a prolific amount of videos and they seem take their R&D seriously. They also build and race Fiats...
Jeff Stich
True Classic
Unfortunately, the owner John Edwards passed away on Christmas Day 2017, so Costa Mesa R&D is no longer in business (for now?).
motoTrooper
True Classic
Aww geez. He seemed like a great guy. I really wanted to meet him and learn more about his expertise. Sigh. Best wishes John and his loved ones. Thanks Jeff.
He seemed like a great guy. I really wanted to meet him and learn more about his expertise. Sigh. Best wishes John and his loved ones. Thanks Jeff.
RJ80
True Classic
Definitely sad news about John (Jeff had informed me a couple weeks ago). I met John a couple times and had him resurface some brake rotors for me. Also own his very interesting Fiat 850 performance book. He was potentially the last guy in town who knew what he was doing...
Just placed an order with Vick Auto for engine seals, gaskets, new valve springs (decided against the Iskys in favor of stock), valve seats, stem seals, adjustable cam gears and a few other things I'm probably forgetting. Already have new belts and tensioner bearing and a water pump. Looking into running a lightweight flywheel, haven't decided one way or another. Ran out of daylight again yesterday, but hoping to get home earlier tonight and get the short block on the stand for tear down.
Just placed an order with Vick Auto for engine seals, gaskets, new valve springs (decided against the Iskys in favor of stock), valve seats, stem seals, adjustable cam gears and a few other things I'm probably forgetting. Already have new belts and tensioner bearing and a water pump. Looking into running a lightweight flywheel, haven't decided one way or another. Ran out of daylight again yesterday, but hoping to get home earlier tonight and get the short block on the stand for tear down.
RJ80
True Classic
More progress the past couple days. Got the new engine on the stand and started tearing it down to verify condition and get it ready to accept the new pistons. I've attached photos of what I've found so far, which is an engine that does in fact seem to be factory new. All internals have a light film of oil on them.
Take a look at the photos of the first piston I pulled: #2. To me, the rod bearings look new with zero wear -- do you all agree? I'm marking these as they came out because I've heard their specific location should be the same when they are re-installed -- maybe this is less important having no wear?
Also see the photos of the crank -- again, looks like no wear to me -- and the bores (same, minus some very light corrosion at the very top that should be scuffed off). The piston looked slightly gross when it came out, I think the rings probably slightly corroded. They cleaned up very well with a little carb cleaner, but will be subbed for 9.8:1 pistons.
Here's my question: I think that every indication shows this engine is basically as-new, as advertised. I plan on replacing seals based on age, but is there any real need to remove the crank from the block and take it down to a bare crankcase? At this point, I'm thinking about just putting new standard size pistons and rings in, reusing the bearings, replace all seals, etc. Then rebuild my existing (used) head from the old engine and put it all together.
Any specific reason that I should be dropping this engine off at a shop for machining work or tolerance checking if all appears as-new?
Take a look at the photos of the first piston I pulled: #2. To me, the rod bearings look new with zero wear -- do you all agree? I'm marking these as they came out because I've heard their specific location should be the same when they are re-installed -- maybe this is less important having no wear?
Also see the photos of the crank -- again, looks like no wear to me -- and the bores (same, minus some very light corrosion at the very top that should be scuffed off). The piston looked slightly gross when it came out, I think the rings probably slightly corroded. They cleaned up very well with a little carb cleaner, but will be subbed for 9.8:1 pistons.
Here's my question: I think that every indication shows this engine is basically as-new, as advertised. I plan on replacing seals based on age, but is there any real need to remove the crank from the block and take it down to a bare crankcase? At this point, I'm thinking about just putting new standard size pistons and rings in, reusing the bearings, replace all seals, etc. Then rebuild my existing (used) head from the old engine and put it all together.
Any specific reason that I should be dropping this engine off at a shop for machining work or tolerance checking if all appears as-new?
RJ80
True Classic
Thought I'd show off the NOS Abarth valves that arrived today. Stock sizes, but the Abarth stamp should add about 1hp each, right?
Meanwhile, my big Vicks order arrived too containing all the gaskets, seals and such that I'll need to put this engine back together. Work has me busy the next couple weeks, but come March I should be able to get the head to a local machine shop and start putting the bottom end together as well.
I sort of asked this above, but would love to hear some opinions: with this short block being new old stock, would any of you bother to disassemble fully and take it to a machine shop? All bearings and surfaces are showing no wear, thus far. The mating surface where the head gasket would go does show a little rust-like discoloration, just from sitting all these years. Should I remove the crank and have a shop clean it all up? Or just try to lightly clean it up myself?
Meanwhile, my big Vicks order arrived too containing all the gaskets, seals and such that I'll need to put this engine back together. Work has me busy the next couple weeks, but come March I should be able to get the head to a local machine shop and start putting the bottom end together as well.
I sort of asked this above, but would love to hear some opinions: with this short block being new old stock, would any of you bother to disassemble fully and take it to a machine shop? All bearings and surfaces are showing no wear, thus far. The mating surface where the head gasket would go does show a little rust-like discoloration, just from sitting all these years. Should I remove the crank and have a shop clean it all up? Or just try to lightly clean it up myself?
Jeff Stich
True Classic
I'd leave the shortblock assembled, & just clean up the surface rust from the head mating surface. Install new seals & gaskets & you should be good to go. I did the same with my 128 a few years ago; NOS 1100cc shortblock + NOS Euro 1100 head, replaced all seals & gaskets, turned out great.
Jeff Stich
True Classic
K&A Head Masters, I think? I may still have their business card around here somewhere...I'll try to find it.
RJ80
True Classic
I found them with that name on Google, thanks Jeff. Regarding the short block, since I'm swapping new 4mm dome pistons in this engine, looks like I'll probably at least have to have the rotating assembly re-balanced if the piston weights are much different. I'll need to weigh them when they arrive.
RJ80
True Classic
The new 4mm dome pistons in standard size showed up last week from AutoRicambi. Went down and bought a good quality digital food scale and started weighing the new pistons in comparison to the old ones. Looks like with rings, clips and wrist pins, we're looking at roughly 5 grams of difference between new and old, so I don't think I'll bother having the whole rotating assembly rebalanced. Common knowledge on the 'net seems to be that as much as 15 or 20 grams of difference won't be noticeable and 20-30 grams is usually within factory tolerances. Hopefully this is helpful to anyone else contemplating a high-compression piston swap.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
Couple of things....well three actually.
New engines come with pistons and rings classed to the bore size, as during production there is a tolerance in the boring / honing process. The class size is stamped on the sump flange face of the block adjacent to the bore in question. The new "standard" sized pistons you purchased may or may not be the correct class sizing to go into the bores with the correct clearances... just something you should check. Same with the ring sizing, if your determined to do a good job the rings should come off the pistons to be measured for gap.
The engine is a Beta engine by the looks of it, Montecarlo/scorpion engines are a little different, mainly in the sump and oil pump...you need to confirm this. By the look of the picture with the engine upside down, it must be a late model (like 1978 plus) 1800, the sump flange looks like a 2 litre sump bolt pattern with the two "offset bolts" on the exhaust side. Does it also have M12 flywheel bolts? Chances are it will also have the 2 litre sized rear main seal (90x74x10 as opposed to 90x70x10) so check the rear seal supplied is correct
I also noticed the engine crankshaft has a pilot bearing installed, odd for a Lancia engine as they usually have a bush instead of a bearing.
SteveC
New engines come with pistons and rings classed to the bore size, as during production there is a tolerance in the boring / honing process. The class size is stamped on the sump flange face of the block adjacent to the bore in question. The new "standard" sized pistons you purchased may or may not be the correct class sizing to go into the bores with the correct clearances... just something you should check. Same with the ring sizing, if your determined to do a good job the rings should come off the pistons to be measured for gap.
The engine is a Beta engine by the looks of it, Montecarlo/scorpion engines are a little different, mainly in the sump and oil pump...you need to confirm this. By the look of the picture with the engine upside down, it must be a late model (like 1978 plus) 1800, the sump flange looks like a 2 litre sump bolt pattern with the two "offset bolts" on the exhaust side. Does it also have M12 flywheel bolts? Chances are it will also have the 2 litre sized rear main seal (90x74x10 as opposed to 90x70x10) so check the rear seal supplied is correct
I also noticed the engine crankshaft has a pilot bearing installed, odd for a Lancia engine as they usually have a bush instead of a bearing.
SteveC
RJ80
True Classic
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info... when I was looking in the shop manual recently, I noticed what you're saying about the bore tolerances. I think I'm going to have to take the block and pistons to a machine shop for measurements just to verify and adjust if needed. The Hastings rings that came with AutoRicambi's pistons are not yet installed on the pistons, my plan was to gap them before installing, if needed.
I believe this to be a Scorpion engine, as the block number is correct for Scorpion (134AS 031) and the same as my existing Scorpion engine. The sump is the angled type, which should be correct, and the oil pump is stock -- this is a new old stock factory shortblock that had been sitting in storage. As far as dating the engine, the serial # on my 1977 Scorpion's original block is 0004561 and the new block is 0002829, which would indicate to me that it was produced before the one originally in my car. The shortblock did not come with a flywheel, I have purchased a lightened M10 bolt flywheel which is still en route to me.
Thanks for the info... when I was looking in the shop manual recently, I noticed what you're saying about the bore tolerances. I think I'm going to have to take the block and pistons to a machine shop for measurements just to verify and adjust if needed. The Hastings rings that came with AutoRicambi's pistons are not yet installed on the pistons, my plan was to gap them before installing, if needed.
I believe this to be a Scorpion engine, as the block number is correct for Scorpion (134AS 031) and the same as my existing Scorpion engine. The sump is the angled type, which should be correct, and the oil pump is stock -- this is a new old stock factory shortblock that had been sitting in storage. As far as dating the engine, the serial # on my 1977 Scorpion's original block is 0004561 and the new block is 0002829, which would indicate to me that it was produced before the one originally in my car. The shortblock did not come with a flywheel, I have purchased a lightened M10 bolt flywheel which is still en route to me.
RJ80
True Classic
I got back to working on the Scorpion this weekend. The job that's been on my list for a while is making sure that piston-to-bore tolerances are appropriate with the new 84.0 std size, high-comp pistons I bought from AutoRicambi. First, I found the bore class stampings on my block that Steve described above -- they were all 'D' class except for #4 which was E class. I then measured the factory pistons that I removed from this block, and they were all within spec -- 83.98 for the Class D's and 83.99 for the Class E piston.
Then, I measured the new "84.0" pistons from AutoRicambi to see if they were within these specs. I got readings of 83.90-83.92 which according to my factory manual is too small for even the smallest Class A bore (which starts at 83.95). It would seem that these pistons are simply not to spec for the Lancia motor. I rechecked my micrometer calibration (it was spot on) and remeasured each piston several times, taking about an hour to do so properly and carefully.
I've emailed Csaba at AR to see if he's got any suggestions, but looks like I may have to send these pistons back. I do have another set of the same pistons in an 84.4 size, but I'd hate to immediately go oversize on a brand new block.
Then, I measured the new "84.0" pistons from AutoRicambi to see if they were within these specs. I got readings of 83.90-83.92 which according to my factory manual is too small for even the smallest Class A bore (which starts at 83.95). It would seem that these pistons are simply not to spec for the Lancia motor. I rechecked my micrometer calibration (it was spot on) and remeasured each piston several times, taking about an hour to do so properly and carefully.
I've emailed Csaba at AR to see if he's got any suggestions, but looks like I may have to send these pistons back. I do have another set of the same pistons in an 84.4 size, but I'd hate to immediately go oversize on a brand new block.
RJ80
True Classic
Update: The undersized pistons are going back. My only option, it appears is either to run the stock pistons or go oversize. The first option isn't really an option to me, so oversize it is. A shame for a brand new block, but it's too much of a challenge to get pistons that will fit properly. I will be using AR Ricambi's 84.4, 4mm dome pistons.
Two things to be aware of: I'm guessing that all of AR Ricambi's supply of the 4mm dome 84.0 pistons are undersized for even the smallest Class A bores, so beware before ordering. That said, Csaba at AR has been fantastic through the ordeal, sending a pre-paid return label, answering questions politely and quickly and even apologizing for the pistons being out of spec. Csaba and AR will be getting more of my business in the future.
Two things to be aware of: I'm guessing that all of AR Ricambi's supply of the 4mm dome 84.0 pistons are undersized for even the smallest Class A bores, so beware before ordering. That said, Csaba at AR has been fantastic through the ordeal, sending a pre-paid return label, answering questions politely and quickly and even apologizing for the pistons being out of spec. Csaba and AR will be getting more of my business in the future.