Brake question

[robsad]

Ive given up trying to free up the frozen brake fittings on my 74. I've tried many applications of PB Blaster and using a torch over many days with no luck. Luckily the hoses are in good shape so they don't need replacing right now. My question is are the fittings (threads, pitch etc.) unique to these cars ? I hate the thought of trying to run new lines through all the obstacles it would take to replace them. There are SS flexible lines out there that would make the job easy but I'm sure the fittings would not work on these cars. Any tips on what to do ?

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Unfortunately they are rather unique. Fiat likes to use uncommon thread sizes for lots of things, this being one of them.

Replacement nuts (for the ones you will damage when taking them off) are available from one or two sources (there are a couple of threads that discuss this). And a couple of the Fiat specialist vendors offer SS brake hoses with the needed size of fittings as direct replacements for the X1/9 (at a price). Thankfully the hardlines are not unique, so you can replace them (if necessary) easily. But they do require "bubble flaring" (European style ends) to use the special nuts. So you will likely need to buy the appropriate tool to do those flares.

There is another option (there always is); you can use more common fitting sizes with adaptors. The adaptors would connect to the calipers, then regular nuts are installed on the hardlines (with regular flares, no new tool required). To install the common style nuts you can cut off the very end of the line (old flare), slip the nut over the tube, then use a common flaring tool to make a new flared end. Then it is easy to get SS flex lines to fit the common fittings on both ends. A bit more work, but actually less costly compared to all the "special" stuff.

Regarding the issue of removing the stuck fittings. That is a very common occurrence on these calipers and the masters. Typically the nuts a sacrificed (destroyed) in order to get them free. One frequent tool used to do this is vice-grips. Personally I have always managed to get them free with heat. But admittedly it takes quite a bit of torching to get there. I recently bought a new tool that might help with these frozen nuts. It is a box wrench with a open slot (to pass over the hardline), then a bolt clamp closes the box end tightly around the nut. I haven't tried it yet so can't report if it helps or not. If you know you will be replacing the flex hoses then you can simply cut them, take the caliper to your work bench, clamp it in a large vice, and use a long breaker handle on whatever tool you use to engage the nuts. Also makes it easier to get all sides of the fitting's bore hot with the torch.

Use some anti-seize during reassembly to avoid this mess in the future (and it will need to be done again, seems Fiat brakes require frequent servicing compared to other makes).

 

[ianlawson]

I recently bought a new tool that might help with these frozen nuts. It is a box wrench with a open slot (to pass over the hardline), then a bolt clamp closes the box end tightly around the nut.

Wow, I like the sound of that little beauty, Dr Jeff!! Can you advise the manufacturer of that tool + the name of what it is described as/called?

cheers, IanL - NZ

 

[carl]

Not sure what you are saying about fittings being unique. Are you replacing your flex hoses or just swapping in replacement calipers? All the Fiat vendors sell rubber or stainless steel flex lines. If you mean are the 74 lines unique, go check the MWB catalog.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Not sure what you are saying about fittings being unique.

The flare nut fittings and related threaded bores used by Fiat are a very uncommon size. Difficult to find, as most brake parts manufacturers do not make them.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Can you advise the manufacturer of that tool + the name of what it is described as/called?

It's actually a very simple but brilliant concept. I wonder why we haven't seen something like it ages ago.

Unfortunately I do not have any specific info to offer. I found it while traveling abroad; I like to see what is going on in the repair shops, hardware stores, tool supply places, machine shops, small manufacturers, etc when I go to another country. It is very interesting to see how things are done, especially when they do not have the vast resources we do. Anyway, I saw this tool and wasn't totally sure what it was intended for, or even what size of fittings it would fit. But the design was very creative. The quality isn't great, I expect it might fail given the force needed for Fiat brake fittings. But if it looks like a promising design then I will attempt to duplicate it with a better quality of materials. It shouldn't be too difficult to make one from a regular flare nut wrench or box wrench. Even better would be to make something like it from a flare nut "crow's foot" wrench, so you could use a long breaker bar on it.

The next time I have it out I'll take a picture and post (not even sure where it is at the moment, had it for a couple years and never had the need to try it yet). But imagine taking this, with a slot cut into it:

Then add something like this over the cut-out slot:

Sorry if that isn't a clear representation, it's the best I could find with a quick image search.

 

[ianlawson]

Sorry if that isn't a clear representation, it's the best I could find with a quick image search.

Thanks, Dr. Jeff!! Yep, I "think I" can see the method that it works by! Certainly looks like it might be a handy addition to any X-heads tool box!

cheers, IanL - NZ

 

[myronx19]

I bought a special Vice Grip from Midwest Bayless, and it works quite well at grabbing onto really difficult nuts. I just searched MWB, but I couldn't find it - but check this out! BTW: This is not the correct size, from memory it's a 10mm hex? I can't recall. but anyway here's the basic idea:

https://www.amazon.com/OTC-6720-2-F..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=H0BMD15ETHXMC3P0R1NA




This is what I bought from MWB (stole this pic from the net)

 

[artz1731]

Well well, there’s a tool I definitely should have. It would go in the tool cart drawer where I keep all the hardly ever used tools that I forget I own until the job is done.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I bought a special Vice Grip

On those ViceGrip designs, there is a common one that can be found at many of the usual tool sources called "parrot nose". They are similar to the second picture from Myron (above), and not necessarily a 'hexagon' nut shape. The one in Myron's first picture is an actual hex to fit a specific size nut. That seems it would work better in this application. I've not seen that one before, pretty cool.

One thing I think would help is to have something that you can attach a long handled ratchet or breaker bar to. Extra leverage might help to control the damage some by allowing better control of the force applied. And it might save skinning some knuckles. Two thoughts come to mind with this concept; a special socket that has side access like a Oxygen Sensor socket has, or a Crow's Foot style wrench (but made to fit the flare nuts):

 

[Dr.Jeff]

It would go in the tool cart drawer where I keep all the hardly ever used tools that I forget I own until the job is done.

Well, you are definitely smarter than I am. I don't keep all those "special" tools in one place. So not only do I forget that I have them, but even if I remembered I don't know where I put them.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I looked on Google Image to see if I could find a picture of the type I discussed earlier (with the clamping closure). I did not find it specifically, but I saw several interesting images of other styles. Here is a random selection:


If you go through these images, there are a couple things that stand out. One is how the design of some of them creates more pressure/force around the nut as the wrench is pulled harder. The other is the sheer simplicity of some (I especially like the last image). Some are intended to be "ratcheting", which is neat but kind of counterproductive in our case - as they will be less likely to hold the nut securely. But their basic design could be changed to make them self-tightening rather than ratcheting.

 

[ianlawson]

So not only do I forget that I have them, but even if I remembered I don't know where I put them.

Hmmm, Dr. Jeff! Seems like you and me may be of similar "maturity"!!! Or, as my 51 year-old son describes it - "Dad, your ol' fart's disease is getting worse by the day!!"
Cheeky young prick!!

cheers, IanL - NZ

 

[DaveR]

This is on the Lada Power site. Marketing may want to review name of the tool.

https://ladapower.com/catalog/tools/lada-bleeding-nipple-tool-detail

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

This is on the Lada Power site. Marketing may want to review name of the tool.

https://ladapower.com/catalog/tools/lada-bleeding-nipple-tool-detail

The name does lose something in the translation! LOL The idea is sound, the slot allows use on fittings and the cap screw allows it to provide close to the strength of a box end wrench.

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

I looked on Google Image to see if I could find a picture of the type I discussed earlier (with the clamping closure). I did not find it specifically, but I saw several interesting images of other styles. Here is a random selection:
View attachment 16261 View attachment 16262 View attachment 16263 View attachment 16264 View attachment 16265 View attachment 16266 View attachment 16267 View attachment 16268

If you go through these images, there are a couple things that stand out. One is how the design of some of them creates more pressure/force around the nut as the wrench is pulled harder. The other is the sheer simplicity of some (I especially like the last image). Some are intended to be "ratcheting", which is neat but kind of counterproductive in our case - as they will be less likely to hold the nut securely. But their basic design could be changed to make them self-tightening rather than ratcheting.

Regarding the last pic, bolstering the strength of a flare nut wrench with a vise grip positioned at the open end, is a technique that Papa Tony has been advocating at least since I got here in 2007.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

This is on the Lada Power site.

That is almost exactly what mine looks like, design wise. Slightly different details but the very same concept. And that is about what I recall paying for it (less than $5 USD). It was from one of the small countries around the Mediterranean Sea region, either Greece or Spain I think. As I said, haven't tried it yet. I suspect these examples aren't built strong enough for our bleeders, but you could easily make the same design from much stronger parts. That's why I bought one, to use as a concept pattern and make a better example. That is if I can remember where it is (Ian).

 

[AKimball92]

I looked on Google Image to see if I could find a picture of the type I discussed earlier (with the clamping closure). I did not find it specifically, but I saw several interesting images of other styles. Here is a random selection:
View attachment 16261 View attachment 16262 View attachment 16263 View attachment 16264 View attachment 16265 View attachment 16266 View attachment 16267 View attachment 16268

If you go through these images, there are a couple things that stand out. One is how the design of some of them creates more pressure/force around the nut as the wrench is pulled harder. The other is the sheer simplicity of some (I especially like the last image). Some are intended to be "ratcheting", which is neat but kind of counterproductive in our case - as they will be less likely to hold the nut securely. But their basic design could be changed to make them self-tightening rather than ratcheting.

I think I need to invest in a pair of those WTF wrenches. A very convoluted design. I wonder how well they take torque.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I agree, they likely don't hold up to high torque very well.

 

[EricH]

The flare nut fittings and related threaded bores used by Fiat are a very uncommon size. Difficult to find, as most brake parts manufacturers do not make them.

Fedhillusa.com carries them.... As do our regular vendors and all else being the same I'd rather buy from them.