Need to reverse rotation of a Abarth A112 engine to counterclockwise

Nice engine! Even nicer is the red car in the photo. :)

Need to report back along with some pics once you've got the engine in the Moretti...
 
Save the header and the throttle cable steel holder on the alloy valve cover! You will need to cut off the end of the existing 850 cable holder and weld it on the existing 1050 steel bracket. Do this and use a vice clamp to get it in the same location as it was on the 850. You will then need to flip over the bellcrank so it pushes rather than pulls ala 850.
If you go to the workshop forum and see my post about "850 restoration show and tell" you can see the mods. ALSO don't cut the "pushrod" going to the carb with the dirty yellow nylon clamp. The threads are roll formed and not cut with a die. That means the mfg process used dies which rolled the 5mm shaft to form the threads. If you cut it off and try and thread it you end up with VERY shallow threads. I opted to leave it that way as it pushes rather then pulls.
I'll post a pic of the stainless 1050 header mods to fit it into an 850 based car. It results in a compact and neat package well worth the work. It's not finished yet and my stick welding (with special ss rod) skills
DSCI0966.JPG
has deteriorated to the point of being embarrassing.
 
You might want to separate the transaxle & starter motor from the engine before loading/shipping it, as you won't need those items when installing the A112 engine into the Moretti. This makes it easier to move the engine about & leaves more room for "other stuff" to fit in the container. You might also be able to negotiate a better price for just the engine without those 2 items(?). ;)

Hopefully your Moretti came with an 850 engine in it? You'll need to borrow a few parts from it for the 1050 conversion.

Hi Jeff,
I ll be purchasing just the engine, and yes, my Moretti has the original engine and tranny both running very well.
I just received an email from Berni Motors stating that the gear set conversion to reverse the rotation in this engine is NOT possible ( I m very confused now)
 
I just received an email from Berni Motors stating that the gear set conversion to reverse the rotation in this engine is NOT possible ( I m very confused now)
Did they offer any explanation why? Perhaps they were assuming you intended to just install the gear set and not make other necessary changes? Or some other miscommunication. Because it sounds like others here have done it. Maybe ask Berni more questions to clarify things.
 
Did they offer any explanation why? Perhaps they were assuming you intended to just install the gear set and not make other necessary changes? Or some other miscommunication. Because it sounds like others here have done it. Maybe ask Berni more questions to clarify things.
Doesn't make sense to me either. The A112 block is pretty much the same as a 903 block (except oiling system and a few small details). The 850 cranks are essentially the same except for the A112 having larger mains bearings. The cams are interchangeable.
 
I just received an email from Berni Motors stating that the gear set conversion to reverse the rotation in this engine is NOT possible (I'm very confused now)

It is indeed possible, it's a known conversion method. Perhaps Tony just meant to say he's "out of stock" on this gearset (as in "It's not possible for him to supply them at this time")?
 
As mentioned earlier the A112 stainless steel 70hp header can easily be used on an 850. I forgot to take a pic before starting but the basic idea is it bolts on but exits out the drivers side at a 90 degree angle to that desired. Depending on you muffler dimensions will vary so I haven't included any. I cut both downpipes shortly after they completely merge. If you then rotate the remaining Y toward the front you can determine how much to cut off to get the proper height/clearance for your muffler. You will want to have it aiming straight forward if you use a 180 degree U-bend. DON'T weld everything yet! At most a few small tacks as it may take several attempts to get it right. I held the muffler in position with a transmission jack from Harbor Freight that I use on 850 motors. AFTER everything fits (including mounts) finish welding the seams. It looks lower/longer in the pic but that's because the flange is not square to the floor.
DSCI0968.JPG
DSCI0967.JPG
My oxygen C tank was empty so I used an arc welder with special SS rod. It came out OK after grinding off the lumps.
First pic is the finished product while second shows the VHT paint being cured while my wife was out. Product says smoke is harmless and it actually didn't smell/smoke. I'll run the "self clean" before putting in the Christmas turkey.
DSCI0968.JPG
 
Anthony Berni told me I need to order a LH rotation camshaft and a oil pump drive shaft below distributor.
He was clear with the gear answer: Not Possible!!!
 
Anthony Berni told me I need to order a LH rotation camshaft and a oil pump drive shaft below distributor.
He was clear with the gear answer: Not Possible!!!
Have you priced out what getting them from BM would cost anyway? S/T in Germany is likely a fair bit cheaper.
 
Have you priced out what getting them from BM would cost anyway? S/T in Germany is likely a fair bit cheaper.
Yes
would cost A112 camshaft (does not specify Abarth type) for 600euros and oil pump driveshaft below distributor 100euros. Then I believe I have to deal with the clutch, crankshaft bushing adaptation, etc
 
Yes would cost A112 camshaft (does not specify Abarth type) for 600euros and oil pump driveshaft below distributor 100euros. Then I believe I have to deal with the clutch, crankshaft bushing adaptation, etc

Wait, why would you want to buy an A112 cam & distributor driveshaft? You already have these items in the 1050 engine you're buying.

If you're doing the "cam + distributor driveshaft" route of a reverse-rotation conversion on this 1050 to go to CW rotation (instead of using a reverse-rotation gearset), you'll want to use an 850-specific cam (ie: the one in your Moretti's original 850 engine) + a 903cc Fiat 850 distributor driveshaft.

NOS 850 cams are frequently seen on eBay.it for 150-300+Euro (WARNING: Know your Fiat part numbers AND what the parts should look like before buying!). Our USA vendors can supply performance 850 cams, as well (often regrinds from Delta or Crane). New 903 850 distributor drives show up less frequently (but they do come up), used ones are often found on eBay (USA).

Or you could buy the R/R gearset/spacers set from Obert&Co. - @ ~$500 it's still cheaper than BM & a cheaper shipping cost.
 
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A few pertinent Fiat part numbers:

4121896 = 850 Sedan camshaft (good low end torque).
4109496 - 850 Special/Spider/Racer/Coupe/Sport Coupe camshaft.
4109431 = 903cc 850 engine oil pump/distributor drive shaft (taller than 843cc/817cc shaft).
 
Shouldn't removing the oil pump shaft gear and installing it on the A112 distributor work too?

Obert is a distributor for BM and BM won't sell to me without going through a US agent. Judge Parker also used to be a distributor but don't know if he is anymore. As I mentioned earlier, the reverse gears are available from Scuderia Topolino in Germany for 229 Euro ($260USD) plus shipping.

Curious why the spacers are needed for reversing rotation in an A112 engine only (according to Obert's listing)? What is different about an A112 engine compared to an 850? Below are pics of an A112 gear (on crank) compared to an 850 one. I wonder if an A112 uses the spacers as stock and in that case you could buy them specifically for an A112 engine and save $$?

I just came across a gear set on ebay italy that does away with the timing chain altogether. Not sure how the stock aluminum cover fits over the "arm" piece.

I wonder how the stock A112 cam specs compare to stock 850 cams?


s-l500.jpg
s-l500.jpg

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Jeff wrote "The A112 crank will need to have the flywheel end drilled & rebushed to fit the 850 trans input shaft. This should only be done by a competent machinist with the proper tooling."

I have no memory of doing this with my swap. It could be faulty memory, of course - bc it has been a lot of years! Perhaps it was as easy as pressing an 850 style bushing into the crank wihtout redrilling it? I could just be forgetting this step.

Chris Obert was a great help in sourcing parts (and knowing what I needed).

Reading Greg Schmidt's Fiat & Abarth Tricks was helpful as well.

I remember using parts from both distributors to build One that turned the proper direction and was electronic.

The A112 distributor that came on my A112 engine uses the same electronic pick up, module and distributor cap as a 2litre Fiat Spider 2000 w electronic igntion
The advance unit appears the same as the stock 850 distributor, but is marked 16 degrees instead of 14degrees.


I used a PBS water pump and some custom plumbing, and got rid of the monstrous 850 style pump. I converted to an electric fan. People told me I would overheat with the extra horsepower from the 1000cc engine. I thought they were crazy. They were right. I added a small auxilliary radiator under the car and now it often runs too cool in the cold of winter to properly toast my feet.

Block off the mechanical fuel pump and convert to electric - then you can run the fuel line further from the exhaust system.

For a cam, I bought a Delta cam that they called a "split timing cam." Part number DEL 622 sp hp. It has a nice lope at idle and was easy to set up.

I installed a 28/30 DGV using an NOS Alquati intake I found somewhere. My old notes say that another carb option was "Pierce sells 32DCOF2 - side draft small version of 40dcoe"

The A112 alternator worked without modification, BUT you have to figure out the wiring if your Moretti came with a external voltage regulator. J

udge Parker has an 850 Sedan racecar with twin side drafts and a styling little Denso alternator which I want! (see attached photo - NOT MY CAR!).


850Alternator.JPG
 
Jeff wrote "The A112 crank will need to have the flywheel end drilled & rebushed to fit the 850 trans input shaft. This should only be done by a competent machinist with the proper tooling."

I have no memory of doing this with my swap. It could be faulty memory, of course - bc it has been a lot of years! Perhaps it was as easy as pressing an 850 style bushing into the crank wihtout redrilling it? I could just be forgetting this step.

Chris Obert was a great help in sourcing parts (and knowing what I needed).

Reading Greg Schmidt's Fiat & Abarth Tricks was helpful as well.

I remember using parts from both distributors to build One that turned the proper direction and was electronic.

The A112 distributor that came on my A112 engine uses the same electronic pick up, module and distributor cap as a 2litre Fiat Spider 2000 w electronic igntion
The advance unit appears the same as the stock 850 distributor, but is marked 16 degrees instead of 14degrees.


I used a PBS water pump and some custom plumbing, and got rid of the monstrous 850 style pump. I converted to an electric fan. People told me I would overheat with the extra horsepower from the 1000cc engine. I thought they were crazy. They were right. I added a small auxilliary radiator under the car and now it often runs too cool in the cold of winter to properly toast my feet.

Block off the mechanical fuel pump and convert to electric - then you can run the fuel line further from the exhaust system.

For a cam, I bought a Delta cam that they called a "split timing cam." Part number DEL 622 sp hp. It has a nice lope at idle and was easy to set up.

I installed a 28/30 DGV using an NOS Alquati intake I found somewhere. My old notes say that another carb option was "Pierce sells 32DCOF2 - side draft small version of 40dcoe"

The A112 alternator worked without modification, BUT you have to figure out the wiring if your Moretti came with a external voltage regulator. J

udge Parker has an 850 Sedan racecar with twin side drafts and a styling little Denso alternator which I want! (see attached photo - NOT MY CAR!).


View attachment 18498
Jonathan,
The crankshaft end is a problem I remember without a doubt. I was fitting a 1050 motor to the car when everything came to a halt about 1/4" from the bellhousing being seated to the block. The bushing was an easy fit but the crankshaft/transmission was NOT. Only thing I can't remember is if it was a 600 or 850 that it was going into as my garage had both. It's also possible that the particular motor was a 903 based block with either a 1050 crankshaft fitted (center main ton 903 size) or POSSIBLY my one of a kind actual, real, never seen another, factory race billet crank. It was very slender and 74mm without the normal husky throws. The "arms" were more like oval discs connecting mains to throws. There were parts there that wouldn't have been if grinding down a 1050/903 crank. Greg Schmidt once mentioned he could assemble a complete stock motor in X (?) hours. Once you added one NON stock part the time usually jumped to days...just too many parts needing modifying when put into a motor that's probably twice the displacement as designed originally.
 
Jeff wrote "The A112 crank will need to have the flywheel end drilled & rebushed to fit the 850 trans input shaft. This should only be done by a competent machinist with the proper tooling."

I have no memory of doing this with my swap. It could be faulty memory, of course - bc it has been a lot of years! Perhaps it was as easy as pressing an 850 style bushing into the crank wihtout redrilling it? I could just be forgetting this step.

Chris Obert was a great help in sourcing parts (and knowing what I needed).

Reading Greg Schmidt's Fiat & Abarth Tricks was helpful as well.

I remember using parts from both distributors to build One that turned the proper direction and was electronic.

The A112 distributor that came on my A112 engine uses the same electronic pick up, module and distributor cap as a 2litre Fiat Spider 2000 w electronic igntion
The advance unit appears the same as the stock 850 distributor, but is marked 16 degrees instead of 14degrees.


I used a PBS water pump and some custom plumbing, and got rid of the monstrous 850 style pump. I converted to an electric fan. People told me I would overheat with the extra horsepower from the 1000cc engine. I thought they were crazy. They were right. I added a small auxilliary radiator under the car and now it often runs too cool in the cold of winter to properly toast my feet.

Block off the mechanical fuel pump and convert to electric - then you can run the fuel line further from the exhaust system.

For a cam, I bought a Delta cam that they called a "split timing cam." Part number DEL 622 sp hp. It has a nice lope at idle and was easy to set up.

I installed a 28/30 DGV using an NOS Alquati intake I found somewhere. My old notes say that another carb option was "Pierce sells 32DCOF2 - side draft small version of 40dcoe"

The A112 alternator worked without modification, BUT you have to figure out the wiring if your Moretti came with a external voltage regulator. J

udge Parker has an 850 Sedan racecar with twin side drafts and a styling little Denso alternator which I want! (see attached photo - NOT MY CAR!).


View attachment 18498

I think Judge said his alternator came from a forklift and was 30amp. Search for mini alternators and you will get a variety of results and prices.

I believe Judge had the crank machined to accept the 850 pilot bearing. I know we used the "wood dowel and grease" method to remove the bushing from the 817 crank and we put it in the 982.

We put a gear drive in it but unfortunately I don't remember if there was an adapter or spacer.

Sorry I don't have more "real" info.
 
It's also possible that the particular motor was a 903 based block with either a 1050 crankshaft fitted (center main ton 903 size) or POSSIBLY my one of a kind actual, real, never seen another, factory race billet crank. It was very slender and 74mm without the normal husky throws. The "arms" were more like oval discs connecting mains to throws.

Like this?:

stroker1.jpg stroker2.jpg
 
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