Newbie question - most cost effective way to get modern perf from an FI 1500 X?

A

alfisti

Daily Driver
Hi folks. I'm considering buying an X1/9. I'm concerned about its ability to keep up with modern traffic, though. If I were to buy a solid running, rust free car, how would I go about getting the power up to a more modern level? I'd at least like to get the 0-60 time (as a rough yardstick) down under 10 seconds - I consider that the bare minimum to be able to merge into traffic where I live (NJ).

I looked in the Wiki and there really is nothing there - I did some searching here and I see some articles on cams, etc., but really, is there a summary somewhere of what the options are? What could be done inexpensively to an X to get real gains in performance?

Thanks!
-Alfisti
 
An X will keep up with modern traffic but you are on it all the time, which the engine actually likes.

An X engine can be upgraded to @ hundred and ten horsepower will make it certainly much faster but it won’t be dueling with a Hellcat. The result will be a a classic car which is still doing over 4K at 80.

Due to the way the engine’s were built for the US market there is no single thing which will change the output sufficiently to match modern New Jersey traffic. The compression is low, the displacement is small, the cam is emissions friendly and intake and exhaust manifolds are restrictive.

There are innumerable engine build threads on here. The short answer is increase compression, (increase displacement helps as well), port the head, a hotter cam, a header, and an alternative intake with better carbs. If the car is fuel injected doing all that and possibly going to an aftermarket engine management system.

Frankly, the best away to deal with this is to do an engine swap, the most popular is the Honda K20 and the B16/18 has also been done. There have been a few Toyota MR2 engine swaps but they are not documented. For the K20, Midwest Bayless offers a base kit fit the for K20, this swap needs cutting and welding in the engine bay. The B series requires sacrificing the rear trunk unless you change the intake system significantly.

Either way, it will be a somewhat costly exercise.

Others will be along shortly to give you a few different views.
 
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These are classic, small displacement sports cars. I think targeting a 0-60 time is perhaps a false target. If your real aim is to have a car that can safely deal with modern traffic then a properly running X is already there. I drive in northern Virginia and the traffic situation is probably the same as NJ (maybe worse) and I have no problem with keeping up with traffic. The reality with modern cars, and even a Corolla probably has around 140hp, is the driver who is usually on their cell phone or spacing out in some other manner and is probably just barely cruising at legal speed.

First, get used to using what you have, if you shift at 3,500rpm then you are not using all the power your X came with. Rev the hell out of it. My 83 X was converted to a single carb which is slightly larger than the ones that came on early Xs and a header with turbo muffler. The rest of the motor is stock and I have no desire for any internal mods, it runs great. FI Xs run fine and I'm not aware of any instant power boosting mods for an injected X (but others will jump in on that).

Actually, my biggest complaint with Xs in modern traffic is the brakes...if cars in front of me go into panic stop mode, I'm not sure I could avoid them.

You will see many threads about engine mods here but they are being done by guys who just like to tinker, not because they feel their X is too slow to deal with traffic.

Also, modding an X motor depends on your budget too. If money is no object then take it to MWB and have a K20 conversion.
 
carl said:
You will see many threads about engine mods here but they are being done by guys who just like to tinker, not because they feel their X is too slow to deal with traffic.
Click to expand...

Uhhh, speak for yourself there, Carl, I definitely felt my X was too slow... :)

Pete
 
Well, my point is, too slow for power hungry virile young men or too slow to be safe?:mad:
 
I'll side with Pete. I do not feel a stock X is capable of comfortably keeping up with modern cars in heavy traffic areas, especially not reliably for regular use. However there are many factors that go into that feeling, so it will be different for everyone and that is just my opinion.

But I think one point that might be considered is the very definition; you are asking a "vintage" car to match a "modern" one, and those are opposites. Therefore I do not believe there is an "inexpensive" way to make any vintage car into a modern one. That being said, if I wanted to upgrade the performance of a X without spending stupid money, I'd say the best recipe to follow would be to try and make it as close to the European specification as reasonably possible. That means at the very least it needs a different cam, exhaust manifold and corresponding system, increased compression, and a different carb if it is a carburated model (if properly functioning and adjusted, the stock original FI system on later models should be good with those mild mods).

The cost to do that? It greatly depends on your ability to do much of the work yourself. If you can remove and reinstall the head, then you are looking at machining costs to mill it and have a valve job done (that varies a lot depending on where you live, maybe others in your region can offer examples). A "clone" of the Euro cam can be had for between $80 and $180. A two-outlet cast iron manifold should be less than $100? And the cost to have a local muffler shop make the exhaust system will be like machine shops, varies greatly. If you get a carbureted model, the cost of a carb upgrade can be as little as about $100 to 'skys the limit'. You will need a gasket and seal kit, and other miscellaneous items. This is all assuming the engine is already in good mechanical condition. The cost to repair other issues cannot be estimated without knowing what those issues are. But I will say that every engine that I have torn apart had some issues that (in my opinion) needed repairs - despite it running fine before the tear down. These are old cars with lots of use and abuse; it will be rare (again, in my opinion) to not find some hidden issues.
 
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This is all great info, thanks everyone. That guide is great, too. Regarding "inexpensive" - I was thinking “under $1,000”. As I cannot do engine work myself, for sure that is kind of limiting :)

Regarding the ability to keep up with modern traffic- I drove a 1.6 Miata for a couple of years. There are a couple of places where I needed to merge onto local highways without an acceleration lane, and thing would occasionally get a bit hairy with the Miata. For a car I drive among other NJ drivers, I am hoping for at LEAST that same amount of power.

Thanks
 
alfisti said:
This is all great info, thanks everyone. That guide is great, too. Regarding "inexpensive" - I was thinking “under $1,000”. As I cannot do engine work myself, for sure that is kind of limiting :)

Regarding the ability to keep up with modern traffic- I drove a 1.6 Miata for a couple of years. There are a couple of places where I needed to merge onto local highways without an acceleration lane, and thing would occasionally get a bit hairy with the Miata. For a car I drive among other NJ drivers, I am hoping for at LEAST that same amount of power.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Since you haven't purchased an X yet, I would suggest watching for an X that has already had engine mods performed. There is no $1000 upgrade that will provide a measurable performance increase given that a good portion of that budget will be consumed by paying a shop to do the work.
 
I agree with "JimD". I edited my earlier post to add some rough estimates for the cost to do a mild engine upgrade (see the last paragraph if it wasn't there the first time you read it). Without labor, you are looking at nearly $1000 in parts and machine work alone. Labor would easily double that, or much worse. That's also assuming it won't need further repairs. And in my opinion it still won't be any better performance than a stock Miata, at best.
 
A little late to the conversation, but I had the same complaint/goal. While the X is perfectly capable for keeping up with traffic once moving, acceleration from a stop was definitely scary (I live in NJ as well).

I just finished putting a hotter cam in the motor and I've also put a more performance oriented exhaust on the car.

The car is noticeably quicker from a stop. You still have to rev it out but I no longer have people tailgating me while I accelerate from a stop. Total cost of the performance parts was about $400, but there was probably also about 80 hours in labor and another couple hundred dollars in replacing wear items (I went through and refreshed the whole engine).

Next on my list is to delete the CAT (or at least see if deleting the CAT provides any noticeable improvement) and install a performance exhaust manifold. With all of that done, I think the car will be absolutely fast enough for modern traffic.
 
If you want the power of the Miata as a baseline (140?) then its an engine swap. I built a motor with FiatFactory’s help. 1500 Euro head and cam, new pistons, new intake and exhaust and a big carb. Complete engine rebuild. I doubt I’m at 100 hp. My total parts were over 4k and labor was about the same. Had i known then, what i know now, it would have been a K20 swap for sure, without question. That would have given me 200 hp, a 6 speed and probably AC. VAS sell complete engines for around 5k, not sure what power they produce but then you have to install it. Just my 2¢....
 
I suppose another thing to consider is reliability. The more you modify the engine, especially if you are trying to get anywhere near 140 hp, the less reliable it becomes. There is no free lunch, like all things in life it is all a trade off.
 
Thanks everyone. The 1.6 Miata has 112hp, for about 2200lbs of car. Would love to hit 140hp, but don't have to set sites that high :)
 
I haven’t seen a BP installed into an X, a Mercury Capri would offer all the parts you need with the exception of the shifter solution.

This would give you exactly what a Miata has.

You won’t get 140 out of a X motor.
 
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My 1600 Miata was truly gutless below 4,000rpm and that was with about 115hp. To make an X get that kind of horsepower would probably cost more than $1,000 if you have to pay for all the work and may not be that much fun to drive in stop and go traffic. I have driven on the Connecticut turnpike which has no merge lanes to speak of and scared the crap out of me for entering in a normal car.

Can I say what we are all thinking....your goal may not be realistic.
 
alfisti said:
The 1.6 Miata has 112hp, for about 2200lbs of car,
Click to expand...

If the goal is to get a similar power to weight ratio as the 1600 Miata in an X19 would be possible... just say an x19 is 920 kg (2200lb is pretty much right on 1 tonne / 1000kg) then you're hoping to make roughly 92% of the flywheel Hp the miata 1600 has, which is 103hp.

can it be done for $1000 starting with a totally stock US spec engine, I doubt it would be possible.

Step one, bang for buck , no exceptions... get rid of the 4/1 exhaust manifold and fit a 4/2 manifold and have a front pipe fabricated. New manifolds are available from germany thru ebay for not silly money... it's worth almost a 10% increase in hp on top of the stock engine with no other changes and will make it rev much easier above 4/5000 rpm, which is what you need when you put your foot down in those merge lanes.

SteveC
 
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