Quick resistor rotor to non resistor rotor conversion

I was checking out a resistor rotor for my Ducelier distributor and found no continuity across it. I decided to take it apart. The resistor is mounted in the rotor arm between the brass end contact and a spring steel plate in the center where it is contacted by the carbon button on the distributor cap. Electrical contact is made by the spring force of the steel part. There are no solder joints in this particular version. The resistor is potted in silicone. After removing the resistor, I checked it and it had no continuity - probably corrosion, no sign of overheating.

The resistor was about the same diameter as 12 gauge copper wire. I cut a piece the same length as the resistor and jammed it in where the resistor was. I then took some electronics grade silicone (no acetic acid) and potted the assembly.

Ducelier Rotor Modified for No Resistor.jpg


The completed rotor is on the left. The defective resistor is on the right.
 
How does removing the resistor affect the rest of the ignition?

Is the coil run harder? Do you get a hotter spark? Does that wear out the cap and rotor contact points faster?
 
How does removing the resistor affect the rest of the ignition?

Is the coil run harder? Do you get a hotter spark? Does that wear out the cap and rotor contact points faster?
The coil may run slightly hotter since it is delivering more energy to the plugs but I don't think it would be very significant. The rotor will certainly run cooler. I don't think a hotter spark would cause too much more wear on the cap, but if it did, the system would likely be less sensitive to the wear because of the hotter spark. As far as the points go, I would not expect much change in wear as they are on the primary side of the coil.

You should get a hotter spark if you are not running resistor wires. If you are running resistor wires, you likely won't notice much of a difference as they typically have as much resistance as the rotor does. In my case, I am running helically wound (for radio interference suppression) solid wires that are only ~100 ohms resistance. My good resistor rotor measured 6K ohms, so it contributes almost all of the resistance between the coil and the plugs. If you are using standard resistor wires, they are usually a few thousand ohms so having 6K in the rotor may not make that big a difference.

The purpose of resistor rotors, wires, and plugs is to reduce electrical interference on the AM broadcast band. You may notice increased ignition noise on the AM band if you reduce the resistance of those elements.

Aside from a hotter spark, I'm eliminating the resistor because it will likely burn out when I install my capacitive discharge ignition system. That is a known issue with resistor rotors.
 
I agree the resistor type rotors are not very reliable. I've encountered several failed ones over the years on many types of vehicles. I always change them to the solid type (readily available for any application, and less expensive than the resistor type). And I also agree the reason for them was not for any performance difference, but for noise suppression, which isn't as much of a factor as it used to be when everyone was listening the AM radios and many cars had solid wires. Unfortunately many sellers often do not specify that the rotors they are supplying are the resistor type, making a failure difficult to pin down when you are not expecting it to have one.

For the Bosch style distributors there is also another similar type of rotor with something embedded in the arm. But with these it is a "rev limiter", not a resistor. At a specified speed (RPM) the signal would be disrupted in the rotor arm, killing the spark until the RPM dropped below the level, then the spark came back. Sort of a centripetal action contact inside the rotor arm. Depending on the specific application there were various RPM levels available to choose from. Actually works fairly well.
 
I agree the resistor type rotors are not very reliable. I've encountered several failed ones over the years on many types of vehicles. I always change them to the solid type (readily available for any application, and less expensive than the resistor type). And I also agree the reason for them was not for any performance difference, but for noise suppression, which isn't as much of a factor as it used to be when everyone was listening the AM radios and many cars had solid wires. Unfortunately many sellers often do not specify that the rotors they are supplying are the resistor type, making a failure difficult to pin down when you are not expecting it to have one.

For the Bosch style distributors there is also another similar type of rotor with something embedded in the arm. But with these it is a "rev limiter", not a resistor. At a specified speed (RPM) the signal would be disrupted in the rotor arm, killing the spark until the RPM dropped below the level, then the spark came back. Sort of a centripetal action contact inside the rotor arm. Depending on the specific application there were various RPM levels available to choose from. Actually works fairly well.
Wow. I hope they marked those rev limiting rotors in big letters so people did not freak out when their ignition cut out at high rpms. You could imagine trying to track that one down if it some how snuck into a performance build with an aggressive cam. Seems like another good use of centripetal acceleration inside a distributor.

I have not found any non resistive rotors for the Ducelier distributor so I am glad they are easy to convert. I noticed RockAuto had non resistive rotors for cars with the Marelli distributor. Have not looked into the Bosch distributor yet since it is not in the car, but I'm sure it could be modded, maybe just not as easy as the Ducelier.

The car came with resistor wires when new. I have no recollection of what type of rotor it came with but it seems like a resistor rotor along with resistor wires would be a bit of an overkill, especially for a car where accomodating a radio was an afterthought. For parts this old, perhaps the suppliers figure nobody could tell a difference in performance but they would likely complain if their radio got noisey so they decided only to make resistor rotors.
 
I agree the resistor type rotors are not very reliable. I've encountered several failed ones over the years on many types of vehicles. I always change them to the solid type (readily available for any application, and less expensive than the resistor type). And I also agree the reason for them was not for any performance difference, but for noise suppression, which isn't as much of a factor as it used to be when everyone was listening the AM radios and many cars had solid wires. Unfortunately many sellers often do not specify that the rotors they are supplying are the resistor type, making a failure difficult to pin down when you are not expecting it to have one.

For the Bosch style distributors there is also another similar type of rotor with something embedded in the arm. But with these it is a "rev limiter", not a resistor. At a specified speed (RPM) the signal would be disrupted in the rotor arm, killing the spark until the RPM dropped below the level, then the spark came back. Sort of a centripetal action contact inside the rotor arm. Depending on the specific application there were various RPM levels available to choose from. Actually works fairly well.
I just took a look at the rotor for my 79 Bosch distributor. I noticed an "R5" embossed on top, and also added as a suffix to a part # underneath. I got out an ohmmeter and measured 5,000 ohms. Based on that, I guess I need an "R0" Bosch rotor. However, the Bosch rotor looks like it can be soldered if necessary (brass center and end contact) so I should be good either way.
 
my 79 Bosch distributor
I did not realize you were working with a MM distributor - I'm not as familiar with them. But both types of rotors are readily available for pretty much all Bosch distributors. The nice thing is this model of Bosch dizzy (in the X) is very common, used on millions of VW's, Volvo's, BMW's, etc, etc, so lots of them out there. With the Bosch rotors you can usually see where the resistor is in the arm, when compared to a non resistor one:

froload.jpg
IMG_1691_450x299.jpg
 
I did not realize you were working with a MM distributor - I'm not as familiar with them. But both types of rotors are readily available for pretty much all Bosch distributors. The nice thing is this model of Bosch dizzy (in the X) is very common, used on millions of VW's, Volvo's, BMW's, etc, etc, so lots of them out there. With the Bosch rotors you can usually see where the resistor is in the arm, when compared to a non resistor one:

View attachment 25509 View attachment 25510
I haven't really started work on the Bosch distributor yet. For now, I'm just getting the Ducelier that came with the car straightened out. I just did a recurve on it (may adjust a bit more), and I wanted to get the resistor rotor out before I connected the CD ignition box. The 74s came with either the Ducelier or the Marelli although I can't say that I've seen a Marelli distributor on an X. The Bosch came with the 1500 motor. My original plan was to build a box for it using a GM module. That was before I tested several CD units sitting in my basement and found a couple that work. Now the plan is to interface the Bosch distributor to the CD box.
 
Ooops, I said you were working on a "Marelli" but I meant to say "Ducelier" - sorry for any confusion.

As far as ignitions go, any idea how the GM modules compare to any of the typical aftermarket CD units? I know some aftermarket units have a "multiple spark" feature, although I've never been fully convinced that is any better than one spark (I seriously doubt the fuel needs to be ignited several times before it burns) - but that's just an opinion. Aside from that, is there much difference between the GM unit and the others? Or for that matter between the standard GM module and the 'high performance' GM type modules?
 
Ooops, I said you were working on a "Marelli" but I meant to say "Ducelier" - sorry for any confusion.

As far as ignitions go, any idea how the GM modules compare to any of the typical aftermarket CD units? I know some aftermarket units have a "multiple spark" feature, although I've never been fully convinced that is any better than one spark (I seriously doubt the fuel needs to be ignited several times before it burns) - but that's just an opinion. Aside from that, is there much difference between the GM unit and the others? Or for that matter between the standard GM module and the 'high performance' GM type modules?
The GM modules are for a Kettering (inductive) type of system. They basically replace the points with a semiconductor power device. I can't say what the premium equivalent part numbers seem to offer over the basic GM part, but there are other, new designs out there as well. Over on my Bosch schematic post, Dom offered up a couple of interesting links on these modules in general:

http://dtec.net.au/High Energy Ignition Upgrade.htm
http://dtec.net.au/Ignition Coil Dwell Calibration.htm

One of them discusses a Bosch module with built in dwell control, and the other discusses the concept. The GM module is an old design, and it is interesting to see how things have progressed. As far as how they compare with CD units, I would guess that for most applications you would not notice much difference. The main advantage of CD units is at high rpm where the Kettering system starts to run out of bandwidth due to the time it takes for the primary coil current to rise. I don't know how important that really is for a 4 cylinder engine. Even at 8K, the X ignition system sees what a V8 system would see at 4K so I think the GM module has that covered. Another advantage of CD is at cold cranking conditions. Well designed units will provide full spark down to pretty low battery voltages.

On the down side, back when CD ignitions became popular in the 70s, there were a number of designs being sold that were not particularly robust and of low manufacturing quality. In fact, many of them had a built in switch so you could go back to points after the box failed - like they were expecting it (and they were right!). Having been involved with supplying electronics to the large auto manufacturers, I can tell you that back then, none of those CD products would be suitable in an OEM application. Of course, back then, semiconductor power devices were also nowhere near as robust as they are today.

My friend had a 72 Mercedes coupe with the 4.2 V8, and he had an intermittent problem for years of the engine randomly dying and then recovering some time later. They took it to several experts who replaced a number of things but never figured it out. One day, we decided to connect up a number of instruments and pilot lights to various parts of the ignition system and go out for a drive to monitor where the problem might be. It turned out to be the power transistor in the Bosch module (similar to the one in the X) suffering from collector-base channeling due to ionic contamination (common semiconductor issue back then). After operating a few minutes, the internal electric fields would cause positive ions (usually Sodium) to collect above the surface of the base and cause an N type channel to form across P type material, creating current flow where you don't want it. Problem is, once the electric fields are gone, the ions disperse along with the problem making it difficult to detect unless you are watching in real time. We replaced the Bosch module with an MSD CD unit and he never had a problem again.

If I were buying a unit today, I'd probably go with an MSD as they have been around for a long time and seemed to have figured out how to come up with a robust design. Back in the late 70s when they were still pretty new, I bought some of their helically wound ignition wires. They were hyped as having "Magnetic Suppression Discharge" technology (not sure if that is where the name MSD came from). They actually had a set made for X1/9s (which were popular then). I am still using those wires on my X and they still test fine for resistance.

The unit I am going to play with is an old Delta Mark 10B from the 70s. As far as reliability goes, it was probably one of the better ones back then although that is not saying much. This one still works so at least I don't have to worry about infant failures at 40+ years. They later came out with a multiple spark version (Mark 10C??). I really don't know whether or not they are better under certain conditions but it is a relatively cheap circuit feature to add and I doubt it would make anything worse.
 
discusses a Bosch module with built in dwell control
I've noticed dwell control is becoming fairly standard in aftermarket ignitions. Like you said, things have progressed.


Delta Mark 10
I remember the Delta units quite well. They were highly regarded back then.

On the whole topic of aftermarket ignition "boxes", they sure have become quite expensive. Which is odd considering most electronics keep getting less expensive.

Thanks for the info. ;)
 
I've always been of the impression a properly working ignition - regardless of design (points, electronic, CD, stock, aftermarket, etc) will work the same, with no notable difference in performance. That is aside from timing, which I consider a different aspect from the overall type of system. Some designs may offer less maintenance, others may show minute differences in test results for emissions, etc, but I seriously doubt anyone could ever tell the difference in actual application. With age and wear/tear things will differ eventually, but I said "properly working". However I still like to utilize modern advancements in technology when possible, so to me a electronic system of some type is preferred. Therefore I'd choose one that is simple, reliable, and easy to install.
 
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The resistor is there not only for suppression purposes, having resistance in the HT circuit prolongs spark duration, it slows the energy discharge from the coil. As long as there is enough HT voltage to bridge the plug gap the spark duration becomes a factor in igniting the cylinder mixture. Also having too high an HT voltage may cause issues elsewhere like faster erosion of the distributor cap and rotor arm or the energy field seeking other paths to ground other than the plugs.

I agree with Dr.Jeff consistent timing of the spark is more important with a correctly functioning system.
 
having resistance in the HT circuit prolongs spark duration, it slows the energy discharge from the coil
This reminds me of a automotive tech instructor I had back in the mid 70's (part of a SAE certification program offered at the University). His approach was to maximize the resistance in the HT circuit as much as possible; resistor plugs, high resistance wires, resistor rotor, and anything else that could be added to increase the resistance in the HT circuit. His rationale was in order for the spark to jump all that resistance it had to be a big one. However considering the technology of the day, I think he was taking the concept a bit too far. The same instructor also purchased a brand new Corvette that was some sort of 'special edition', claiming it would be worth millions as a collectable in a few years. :rolleyes: Aside from all this, the SAE program was a good one and helped to fill the general ed requirements needed for my science major (I probably should have pursued a automotive career instead).
 
This reminds me of a automotive tech instructor I had back in the mid 70's (part of a SAE certification program offered at the University). His approach was to maximize the resistance in the HT circuit as much as possible; resistor plugs, high resistance wires, resistor rotor, and anything else that could be added to increase the resistance in the HT circuit. His rationale was in order for the spark to jump all that resistance it had to be a big one. However considering the technology of the day, I think he was taking the concept a bit too far. The same instructor also purchased a brand new Corvette that was some sort of 'special edition', claiming it would be worth millions as a collectable in a few years. :rolleyes: Aside from all this, the SAE program was a good one and helped to fill the general ed requirements needed for my science major (I probably should have pursued a automotive career instead).
I'm not sure your instructor understood the concept of all that resistance limiting the discharge current so that when the spark does jump it won't be as big as if the resistance was not there.
 
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The resistor is there not only for suppression purposes, having resistance in the HT circuit prolongs spark duration, it slows the energy discharge from the coil. As long as there is enough HT voltage to bridge the plug gap the spark duration becomes a factor in igniting the cylinder mixture. Also having too high an HT voltage may cause issues elsewhere like faster erosion of the distributor cap and rotor arm or the energy field seeking other paths to ground other than the plugs.

I agree with Dr.Jeff consistent timing of the spark is more important with a correctly functioning system.
I think the above discussion has already established that for typical situations, a stock ignition is fine. For performance applications, people go to extreme measures to transfer the energy to the plugs as quickly as possible, and in some cases multiple times per cylinder firing. They also use components that will withstand the output of high energy ignition systems. I'm not saying it is worth a lot to me to go to those measures, but their are evidently a number of people who value what they get in return for performance. For performance applications, I suspect replacing rotors and caps is much less of a financial hardship than replacing tires.
 
I'm not sure your instructor understood the concept of all that resistance limiting the discharge current so that when the spark does jump it won't be as big as if the resistance was not there.

Exactly, it limits the transfer of the energy from the coil in time, IE it prolongs the spark. If the potential difference at the time of firing is great enough to create a spark you need energy behind it to maintain that spark, that energy transfer will be dependant on the resistance in the circuit and the capacity of the energy store behind it. A complete short circuit, zero resistance, will mean the fastest energy discharge and the highest peak voltage at the plug but with the shortest spark duration.

A high spark voltage does not automatically mean a better ignition of the fuel air mixture...
 
I'm not sure what the guy on the first video was trying to do. He was essentially shunting the higher frequency energy to ground. Maybe not a bad idea if he was trying to reduce EMI but not sure how it would improve engine performance. Of course he could have saved some time by just hooking one of those gizmos to the center (rotor) cable instead of making one for each plug.
 
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