A X review and contrast with the MR2

I must not have enough fun. Outside of an autocross course, I have never spun an X.

I have never driven an mr2, so I really can't compare them fairly. I have always preferred the styling of the X over the early mr2.
 
I must not have enough fun. Outside of an autocross course, I have never spun an X.

Me neither, and on autocross course I tend to spin more easily the various generation of Miata than my X1/9, which to be fair is lowered unlike the Miata's I drove who were stock. I guess the author had a suspension problem with is car.
 
2 different scenerios i have spun an x. 1 winter, lots of snow. But to be honest, i was trying to. If trying to just drive it in the snow i never had issues. 2. Once totally miss judged a corner and trail braked hard into a decreasing radius corner. Back swung out and i couldnt Keep it in check while still negotiating the corner. Probably 80% driver and only 20% fiat.

Odie
 
I have never spun my X outside of an autocross but have managed to be side ways in it often enough to remember. Old shallow treaded tires and a bit of damp and it can be quite easy. You really have to want to get sideways in my experience with sticky tires. Odie’s experience of the car biting when one has clearly misjudged is the likely cause of such an occurrence.

The Miata however, that is a very tail happy little brat. The X feels super stable in comparison. I really have to be careful with the Miata, I have come into my work parking lot completely crossed up on more than one occasion much to the consternation of the truck drivers whose exit shares our entrance.
 
My experience is that he got it bass ackwards - stock v stock the X handled better, was more predictable at the limit. My 85 MR2 would spin at the limit seemingly without warning, a trait noted by testers and which led to more built in understeer in later years. Only spun X's in the wet on iffy tires, and racing showroom stock when I got the line apparently wrong.
 
I once put on a set of rear tires (Semperit STT) that the car seemed highly allergic to. I was able to unintentionally do 180 going a moderate speed on a turn that I usually took much faster on my commute. My hypothesis is that the abrupt STT sidewall to tread transition (pretty much a sharp 90 degrees) did not do well with the negative camber of the rear resulting in a very small contact patch. My housemate put them on the rear of his Pinto (solid rear axle) and they worked fine.
 
No experience with MKI MR2's, just MKII's. Compared to the MKII MR2, the X seems to have higher cornering speeds than the MR2. How they handle past the limit I can't contrast, because I've never actually gotten the X to break loose lol. It just keeps digging into the corner incessantly. The MR2 past the limit really isn't bad if you're anticipating it, which you always should be when pushing any car. Both cars handle leagues better than anything else I've driven.

Granted my X has 185mm tires while the X in the article was on 165's . . . that probably makes a significant difference.
 
I daily drove a '76 X1/9 in college for about three years starting in 1999 and then daily drove a 1988 MR2 for about five years. Each car left me stranded once -- the X1/9 with a burst 20-year-old radiator hose at around 80k miles and the MR2 blew a rear axle at about 150k miles. The Toyota was a more comfortable, capable and practical car as a daily driver, but the Fiat was a more pure driving experience and ultimately more fun to drive, even though it was much slower. Put it this way: if I was going to daily one again, I'd choose the MR2 in a heartbeat -- there are still good, low miles, well kept cars out there. But if I was shopping for a weekend toy, it would be an X1/9.

Agree with others that an X1/9 on sticky tires is difficult to get loose on the street, especially with stock 1.3-liter power. Once I put four-spoke Campys and 185-width Yokohama AVS-i tires on mine, I never touched the brakes again on twisty backroads. Whether the car is more or less fun with sticky tires is debatable.
 
I daily drove a '76 X1/9 in college for about three years starting in 1999 and then daily drove a 1988 MR2 for about five years. Each car left me stranded once -- the X1/9 with a burst 20-year-old radiator hose at around 80k miles and the MR2 blew a rear axle at about 150k miles. The Toyota was a more comfortable, capable and practical car as a daily driver, but the Fiat was a more pure driving experience and ultimately more fun to drive, even though it was much slower. Put it this way: if I was going to daily one again, I'd choose the MR2 in a heartbeat -- there are still good, low miles, well kept cars out there. But if I was shopping for a weekend toy, it would be an X1/9.

Agree with others that an X1/9 on sticky tires is difficult to get loose on the street, especially with stock 1.3-liter power. Once I put four-spoke Campys and 185-width Yokohama AVS-i tires on mine, I never touched the brakes again on twisty backroads. Whether the car is more or less fun with sticky tires is debatable.
I've still got the AVS-i tires on mine. I put a new set on in 1995 shortly before the engine blew. When I took the car out for the first time last summer, the tires were a little squirrely but after a few hundred miles they seemed to get their original stickiness back. I guess they just needed to get down to fresh rubber. I think the AVS-i line was for those who wanted close to A008 performance but needed to also drive on wet pavement.
 
I drove a gen1 MR2 once when they were new. It was two decades later before I drove an X and that car was one I restored. It had 185 mm tires too. I drove them too far apart to makes any comparisons. I do remember liking the MR2 at the time, though I wanted to get the faster supercharged version. I really lusted after the second gen MR2, esp. The turbo with its 200 hp. But never even sat in one.

Anyway both are fun, if slow cars that you can pretty much sling around with abandon. I would be happy with one of each in my stable.

I note that the figures quoted are not US models. The FI X made 75 hp here and I believe the base gen1 MR2 was 116 hp and the supercharged one was 145 hp. Someone will wiki and correct me, I'm sure.
 
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This same article was posted in one of the MR2 groups of which I am a member. A number of people commented that they also had an X1/9 at some point. As many of you know I have had many X1/9s over the years to include both street and race cars. It was the X1/9 that was my first real race engineering project. I learned much from analyzing the X's chassis and suspension. I have mentioned here before that I noted the similarities in the X and the Mk1 MR2 when I bought an MR2 racecar several years ago. One of the things I learned was the minor difference in the MR2's rear suspension geometry that resulted in the reputation for "snap oversteer" that has followed the car throughout its history. I wrote up a quick overview of the finding for that group. It is as follows:

Yes, the X1/9 was launched in 1972 and us deliveries started in 1974. Fully 10 years before the AW11 was launched by Toyota.

First, Japanese manufacturers had a history of copying European and American designs throughout the '60, 70's and '80s. The Datsun Roadster (1600/2000), the 240Z, the MR2 and even the Miata, are just the best known. By the way, the AE86 is a knock off of the Fiat 124 Sport Coupe, if you didn't know. So we have history here.

The AW11 chassis is slightly longer and wider than the X1/9 with the extra width found between the inner control arm pivots.

The two cars' front suspension is nearly identical in both architecture and geometry. The unibody configuration is quite different in the trunk area but the suspension mounts and their designs are nearly identical. The additional track aside the geometry; roll center height, control arm range of motion, strut inclination, scrub radius, caster and camber curves, are all so close that the change in roll center geometry due to the additional track width is the only notable difference. Even the steering rack ratio is nearly the same.

The rear suspension is where the notable differences occur. I can't determine the engineer's thinking as to why the geometry is different. It is typical for a front engine car to have the front roll center below the rear. This is to produce more front mechanical grip to counter the front weight bias and give the car better balance and a more rewarding feeling to the driver by offsetting the basic understeer attitude the configuration produces. This is NOT a good idea in a rear/mid engine car.

In the AW11 (and the SW20 which has a similarly configured roll axis) the rear roll center is slightly higher than the front which tends to promote rotation on corner entry. That is: when driven near its limits, turning into a corner, the higher rear roll center forces the car to rotate more aggressively. It also tends to promote oversteer on corner exit. It has less effect on mid-corner steady-state balance.

The X1/9's rear suspension is a A-frame lower control arm (so no track rod) with the rear toe link attached to the arm. The MR2 is a similar layout to the front; a control arm with a track rod and the toe link attached to the chassis. The layouts are similar in antidive, scrub radius and camber curve but the roll center height is the primary difference.

On the Mk1b, Toyota attempted to correct this resulting handling characteristics by building in additional rear toe-in roll steer (bump steer) and removing the rear swaybar. The changes reduce the Mk1a's rotational characteristics but it was done by dialing in additional additional understeer and not correcting the geometry.

I should note that the Porsche 911 and 914, a whole list of Ferraris and Lamborghinis all have a roll center configuration with the rear roll center below the front.

I have won 4 SCCA National Championships in an X1/9 and two in an AW11. I can tell you that there are few cars that drive better than a well setup X1/9. The chassis is excellent. It is easy to drive at the limits and is both fun and rewarding. It does NOT have the reputation of "snap oversteer" that the AW11 and SW20 have.

I will note that "snap oversteer" isn't caused by a design flaw but is by the driver's lack of skill in being able to read the car's dynamics, drive it within its limits and not cause the car to spin. The MR2 is just a more demanding car that punishes mistakes.

That Toyota's engineer's designed the MR2's geometry as they did could have been a intentional to make the car have a more lively feel but I doubt it. Toyota had no experience with mid-engine or rear engine cars and thus probably didn't understand the reason behind Fiat's choice of rear roll center location. Note that Fiat has a LONG history of building sporting rear engine cars, the 500, 600, 750, 850 and X1/9. All with long, successful racing resumes

As I developed my AW11 racecar I noted the similarities in the two chassis and geometry and realized the deficiencies of the AW11. As a race engineer I immediately began looking to correct the geometry and realized the best solution was to completely redesign the suspension system.

I did little to the design of the front suspension other than to allow for a significantly lower ride height that provided for a roll center location that was just above ground level and to correct the camber curve.

For the rear I made the change to the roll center location to place it just below the front roll center and again corrected the camber curve. Correcting the camber curve is ensuring the camber curve never moves to the positive side of the curve during the full range of motion.

I retained the same basic layout of control arms and track rods and used tubular units with Rod Ends to reduce unsprung weight and eliminate the bushings.

If you haven't seen them before, two racecars:

PeruTour3.jpg
shoelscher-1.jpg


A current picture of my garage:

0531161724.jpg
 
I had 3 Gen 1 MR2's and 3 X1/9"s. The MR2 was faster, had great A/C, had more instruments, and I was extremely happy with them. The X1/9 was love at first sight, to this day. I actually have a pristine Black 86 X 1/9 with A/C and leather. I would love to also have a good MR2 again.
 
I must not have enough fun. Outside of an autocross course, I have never spun an X.

I have never driven an mr2, so I really can't compare them fairly. I have always preferred the styling of the X over the early mr2.

I have spun an X1/9.
At 130kph in a tight corner with poor camber, going downhill.
I might have been fine, had I not 'bottled it' and lifted off the throttle midway into the corner.
The 'lift off oversteer' spun me around, over the curb and backwards into a concave clay bank 10' high. The car's tail lights were left embedded in the clay and gravel bank 3' from the ground and the car was shortened by a boot length. The rear window came out in one piece and peppered the clay.
My seat was left with a lumbar support bulge where the water bottle was squashed against the spare tyre (Rt hand drive). My door still opened just but the passenger side was undamaged.
The car had bounced off spun round and stopped.
I sat for a little while while the dust cleared, staring at the bank wondering at my good fortune not to be killed and also how I was going to get to work.
One person stopped to help and he gave me a lift home.
 
I have spun an X1/9.
At 130kph in a tight corner with poor camber, going downhill.
I might have been fine, had I not 'bottled it' and lifted off the throttle midway into the corner.
The 'lift off oversteer' spun me around, over the curb and backwards into a concave clay bank 10' high. The car's tail lights were left embedded in the clay and gravel bank 3' from the ground and the car was shortened by a boot length. The rear window came out in one piece and peppered the clay.
My seat was left with a lumbar support bulge where the water bottle was squashed against the spare tyre (Rt hand drive). My door still opened just but the passenger side was undamaged.
The car had bounced off spun round and stopped.
I sat for a little while while the dust cleared, staring at the bank wondering at my good fortune not to be killed and also how I was going to get to work.
One person stopped to help and he gave me a lift home.

Like I said, I am just not having enough fun. :) Very glad you came out of it OK. The X is a tough little car.
 
I have spun X1/9s both autocrossing and on track many, many times. Once I developed as a driver I rarely spun the car again. As I developed as a driver I began to understand the brilliance of the X1/9's handling. It responds very honestly to the driver and once you learn to manage the rear weight bias it is very rewarding to drive quickly.

While the MR2 is a pretty good chassis it lacks the sophistication of the X1/9.
 
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