1987 Bertone Revival

[CandBMotorworks]

I figured that rather than have a bunch of posts in different threads, I would start my own thread in the hopes some of you would follow along and offer bits of wisdom here and there to shorten my learning curve. Even though this is my 3rd X I feel I am still learning, in part because the three cars I have had have all be significantly different (a 74 1.3l, an 80 1.5l carb, and now this 87 FI).

So, a bit about this car. I picked it up for next to nothing. The prior owner got the car as a kid (he's a 20 something ex-military working on his master's degree). I think he told me drove is less than 1000 mi in the years he owned it (I think he had it for over 3 years)...maybe less than 100. When I got it, it was sitting on a gravel/dirt trucking lot that his father owned. It looked to be o.k., if a bit tired. The selling point at the time was that even though it had been sitting, it started right up and ran smoothly.

A week later he tows it to my home, where it has sat for another month. Today I rolled it into the garage, hooked up a brand new battery I'd bought for it, turned the key, and a lights came on in the dash (I think the low oil pressure, because it was red). Turned the key to start the car and I got a spark off the battery and then nothing. Now nothing comes on. Best I can figure at the moment is that a fuse blew. None of the fuses under the glove box look like a 30 amp starting circuit. I don't recall there being any other fuses in the stock X, but this being an 87, the fuses and such are very different than they were in the 80 or 74. For one it uses modern plastic/blade fuses instead of the glass tubes.

I needed to get lunch and am typing this while eating. If anyone has any thoughts on where to start my search, let me know. The battery terminals were not tightened down so I tightened them but that didn't seem to make a difference. I also checked the positive wiring where it goes through the front firewall, but saw no signs of chafing.

There are also some wires with plugs on their ends that are hanging down in the fuse box area, and right now I don't know what they are supposed to go to. The radio it had is missing and there is a black wire in the radio hole with bare wire on it. In other words, this could be a simple issue or it could be a long path of discovery. I called the PO to see if he had any thoughts but he didn't answer his phone so I left him a voicemail.

Of course, if I figure it out I will update the post, but in the between time...

 

[frosty]

Stupid question is the car still automatic choke?.
If so I have had to pump the pedal four times
To get sufficient fuel into the system even
Then it may die


Good luck

 

[DanielForest]

Some people are much better than me to diagnose an electrical problem, but I will try.

You turn the key and nothing happens?

There aren't many component there. The ignition switch, the battery, the starter/solenoid and the cable/wires, because the starter doesn't even turn. If it was turning, then you would need to find if the problem is fuel or spark related. But we are not there yet.

If the battery is good (it's new: did you put the negative cable on the negative post, positive cable on positive post ?) but you should check again of was it state. Maybe it was not properly charged to start with. Then you could find a way to bypass the ignition switch (or do the brown wire mod, which is basically passing a parallel wire from the battery to the ignition switch where the brown wire is plugged) or you could take a look at your starter to see if wires are correctly connected. Older mechanics will remember the tip of knocking on the starter to help it works...

There is no fuses in that circuit. It's no different than on your older Fiats. If you turn the key, then engine should turn. Maybe not start, but at least turn. Have fun!

 

[CandBMotorworks]

Some people are much better than me to diagnose an electrical problem, but I will try.

You turn the key and nothing happens?

There aren't many component there. The ignition switch, the battery, the starter/solenoid and the cable/wires, because the starter doesn't even turn. If it was turning, then you would need to find if the problem is fuel or spark related. But we are not there yet.

If the battery is good (it's new: did you put the negative cable on the negative post, positive cable on positive post ?) but you should check again of was it state. Maybe it was not properly charged to start with. Then you could find a way to bypass the ignition switch (or do the brown wire mod, which is basically passing a parallel wire from the battery to the ignition switch where the brown wire is plugged) or you could take a look at your starter to see if wires are correctly connected. Older mechanics will remember the tip of knocking on the starter to help it works...

There is no fuses in that circuit. It's no different than on your older Fiats. If you turn the key, then engine should turn. Maybe not start, but at least turn. Have fun!

All valid points. I checked the battery with a voltmeter. It's good. Also, since the meter has polarity, I confirmed that I have the correct ground and positive connections. The ground is fairly obvious because it goes directly from the battery to the firewall behind it. Also, before I started the car I turned it on and used the power to lower the driver's side window. So, it worked at one point.

I haven't pulled the cover off of the column to investigate the switch, which is where I think I would go next. I have done the brown wire mod in the past. I might see if I can do a temp version to check things.

 

[bruakeman]

Most common cause dirty battery connection. Spark off the battery is a big clue.

 

[CandBMotorworks]

So, I put the battery cables back on and tightened them down. I started messing around in the interior and found the interior light switch, and turned it on and I had lights. I turned the ignition key back on and now had lights to the dash (seatbelt light, low oil pressure light). Turn the key to start and I get a click and then nothing and then nothing works. I also tried to pull the ignition switch out but the wiring is all screwed down to the back of the darn thing and I cannot feed enough wire down to pull it through to test/disconnect. I thought that the wiring plugged into the back of the switch, but apparently not. The harness connector is hidden above a metal brace that the dash attaches to, so, it looks like to investigate that further will require removal of the steering wheel and dash binnacle.

Before I do that, though, I want to check my engine and transmission grounds and check the leads to the starter. I say that because what seems to overload the system is attempting to start, which could be a bad ground, starter, or...

In other news, having gotten the car home and off of the mud I've had a chance to inspect it. It has a fair amount of rust. The area below the headlight buckets is completely rusted out on the driver side and isn't much better on the passenger. The sills have rust at the joint between the front fender and the lower section beneath the door. Those sills are the area of greatest concern to me. Most of the other rust is small bubbles or surface rust from where the paint has gone thin. The floors and the coolant line boxes look non-rusty but the floor pan by the driver's foot area has been dented in like somebody didn't know where to place a jack. The dogbone rubber is perished and I suspect it will need motor mounts and other rubber for the suspension all around.

Both the brake and clutch masters look rusty. The brake pedal goes right to the floor and sticks. There is fluid in both reservoirs. I don't see signs of leakage in the interior of the car. Not sure what to make of that.

Does anyone know where to look for paint codes on the Bertone X? I seem to recall there was a sticker in the trunk on earlier cars. I'm curious because the car is black with white pinstripes but in the V on the frunk it has some pinkish-red where the black is coming up, suggesting to me a possible color change at some point. Having said that, it is black everywhere, including in the engine bay. The rear decklid is gloss black. In fact, right now it's the shiniest part of the whole car!

I think I asked this before, but if anyone has a color brochure for 87 that shows the different color combos available, I'd appreciate if you could post it or pm a copy to me.

Last question: were the cromadora phone dial wheels supposed to have white faces or silver? It kind of looks like they are white on this car, but I cannot tell for sure if that it the case or if the paint has just worn to the point where it looks that way.

I've posted some pics of the car.

 

[CandBMotorworks]

Most common cause dirty battery connection. Spark off the battery is a big clue.

Sure, but it only did it the one time, the connectors don't appear dirty and the terminals on the battery are new, and I didn't have the connectors screwed down tight to the battery.

 

[beezee]

Couple of things to check:

- Battery connections clean and tight.
- Check connections to starter. Any clicking sounds from the starter solenoid when you turn the key?
- Check ground strap from transmission to chassis.

Brian

 

[kmead]

Dropping the steering column should give you access to the wiring connectors for the ignition switch. This is pretty easy to do. If it has the ‘one time and break the head off fasteners’ you use a cold chisel to get them started loosening.

It really sounds like you have still have battery connection issues. Undo the battery terminal connections, loosen the fasteners more or less completely from the clamps. Now pry the clamps open so they open the clamps up to their maximum, then using a battery clamp ream, remove the high points there may be inside the clamp (for a lead one) or emery cloth to take any rust off the interior of a steel one.

Remove the ground clamp fastener and clean the face of the steel and the connection. When you reconnect to the car consider using a star washer to dig into the steel and using a carbon conductive grease (found at a home store in the electrical section or online) applied to the parts. This prevents corrosion and actually promotes electrical connection. Do the same where the engine to body ground connections occurs at the transmission and body. I would not use it for any positive (hot) connection so you don’t inadvertently create a different problem.

Sounds like fun, churn on.

 

[lookforjoe]

Could easily be the starter trigger wire from the ign switch. If you jump the spade on the starter to the (+) batt cable & it turns over, then this is likely the issue.

You can likely access the ign connector without dropping the column if you reach into the cavity between the dashboard and the frame under the column (after removing the shroud) - should be in the inboard side. You will likely see obvious burnt/melted issues with the white socket if this is the cause. Cut the wires on either side of the connector & either jion them permanently, or better add a new connector of suitable load carrying gauge (not el cheapo butt splices, etc.) You can add the BWM to shift the load later. A VW starter relay mod in the bay is a good addition for this also. Can't find my pics at the mo, but this is exactly what happened on my 87.

EDIT:

here's one of the connectors - can't recall if this is the starter feed - I think that is in a 4 or 6 pole connector

 

[Ty Chamberlain]

My paint code is on the plaque on the right side door jamb

 

[CandBMotorworks]

kmead and lookingforjoe:

What both of you describe makes sense, and on my 80 I was able to get to the connector that is shown in the photo posted by lookingforjoe. That is what I started to do before I posted. However, the connector is above the metal cross-brace that the dash is connected to and there isn't sufficient space to get my hand in there or to pull down the wiring to get the connector out to where I can disconnect it. Hence the reason why I am considering pulling the gauge cluster and dash binnacle if I find the problem lies there.

Also, this 87 uses modern fuses and WAY more relays than the older cars, so I suspect that Bertone corrected many of the problems we had before. I am thinking that they effectively did their own version of the BWM. For instance, I can see in the book that there are separate relays for the headlights and for the headlight motors, which is one of the BWM modifications.

Does anyone have experience specifically with the electricals on this generation of the car?

[Aside: I did the BWM and relay mods on the 80 for the wipers, headlights and ignition. In total they made a huge difference. ]

All that aside, I think both of you have the right idea(s). I plan to start with the engine bay and check the grounds and connections to the starter and alternator, then pull out my remote starter switch / cables and see if I can get it to start that way. If I am able to do that, then I think that will isolate the problem to the ignition switch/wiring. If I am not, I will then check the wiring at the battery and try again. If that still doesn't work, I'll be back here for additional suggestions!

 

[kmead]

There are things which can be done to improve the late model’s electrical system as well.

Oddly it only has a high beam relay, no low beam relay so it would be be a good idea to add one. There is a mod done I think by Jovani?

Wiper relays are a good add as well since they didn’t do anything on those.

A hard start relay is another way to take load off the ignition switch.

Power window relays are another thing it would be good to add. Bob Brown has a very good solution for that which is reversible and duplicates the arrangement from the factory. I think Jovani may have done a variation which changes the wiring significantly which also works well.

A load relay to take the other primary loads off the ignition switch is also a good idea but not entirely needed if you get the wiper and headlights off the ignition switch load.

I owe another member a list of PDFs for these upgrades which I have been remiss in getting it to him, now I really need to gather them up...

 

[lookforjoe]

It's eitehr that or this 4 pole connector that I think is the one to address (that smaller gauge wire is something else):

You may need to remove the cluster, this pic I took from above with the steering wheel and cluster removed - you can see the brown wire I cut

EDIT - nevermind that pic is upside down! I accessed those from below as described previously - in the pic the column is dropped.

 

[kmead]

kmead and lookingforjoe:

What both of you describe makes sense, and on my 80 I was able to get to the connector that is shown in the photo posted by lookingforjoe. That is what I started to do before I posted. However, the connector is above the metal cross-brace that the dash is connected to and there isn't sufficient space to get my hand in there or to pull down the wiring to get the connector out to where I can disconnect it. Hence the reason why I am considering pulling the gauge cluster and dash binnacle if I find the problem lies there.

Also, this 87 uses modern fuses and WAY more relays than the older cars, so I suspect that Bertone corrected many of the problems we had before. I am thinking that they effectively did their own version of the BWM. For instance, I can see in the book that there are separate relays for the headlights and for the headlight motors, which is one of the BWM modifications.

Does anyone have experience specifically with the electricals on this generation of the car?

[Aside: I did the BWM and relay mods on the 80 for the wipers, headlights and ignition. In total they made a huge difference. ]

All that aside, I think both of you have the right idea(s). I plan to start with the engine bay and check the grounds and connections to the starter and alternator, then pull out my remote starter switch / cables and see if I can get it to start that way. If I am able to do that, then I think that will isolate the problem to the ignition switch/wiring. If I am not, I will then check the wiring at the battery and try again. If that still doesn't work, I'll be back here for additional suggestions!

Have a look at this post for some of the things you can do with a later car:

https://xwebforums.com/forum/index....-i-have-the-brown-wire-mod.36150/#post-319787

The files here were generated by a many of our members.