1300 138A..motor on 128 1100 gearbox

Discussion in 'Front Wheel Drive Fiats' started by ghostdancing, May 17, 2018.

  1. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
    i'm planning a motor swap: a 1300 motor "second generation" (138A..): do these motors mate with my original 4 speed gearbox?
     
  2. fastx19

    fastx19 Administrator Moderator

    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA
    Yes they do. If I remember correctly there is no dimensional difference between the 1100 and 1300 except bore and stroke.
     
  3. Jeff Stich

    Jeff Stich True Classic

    Location:
    Norco, CA
    138A series is a 1500, not a 1300.
     
  4. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
    i guess the first gen 1300 (128 rally\coupe\3P\early x19) it's 128A1.. the second gen (ritmo 75\lancia delta\regata\uno70) where mated with 5 speed gearbox..so i'm not 100% positive if one of these second gen 1300 will fit on my early 4s gerabox

    @jeff: probably you are right..i found these code on the wiki page of the lampredi monoalbero..not always thery are correct

    actually the first gen 1300s are rare here in italy (the gas price always been high here, so 1300 was considered a rather large capacity motor back in the days), the second gen it's easier to source (lots of regata 70 in the early '80s).. that's why i'm asking about this
     
  5. Ulix

    Ulix True Classic

    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Since the USA did not get the later 1300s, you really should try to find the answer in Europe.
    I can tell you about the later 1600s (Tipo etc.) but I don't know anything about the later 1300s.
     
  6. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
    that's a good point, but actually the americans had strada and yugos, both equipped with second gen lampredi motors..
     
  7. Jeff Stich

    Jeff Stich True Classic

    Location:
    Norco, CA
    The USA Strada had a 138A 1500 (5-speed), the USA Yugo had a 128A 1100 (128 style 4-speed) or a (128x) 1300 (Yugo 5-speed). All of our 1100/1300/1500 blocks & 4-speed/5-speed trans are interchangeable as long as the correct flywheel/clutch & starter assemblies are used.
     
    Chaostoy likes this.
  8. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
    ok Jeff, so it will be matter of select the correct flywheel \clutch\starter, but the bolt pattern to mate motor\gearbox it's the same for all of these motors, correct?
     
  9. Jeff Stich

    Jeff Stich True Classic

    Location:
    Norco, CA
    For the USA motors/gearboxes I mentioned, yes. As Ulix stated, we didn't get the "later" 1300 engines here (which you're calling "second generation"). Not counting the 1988 Yugo GVX & 1990/91 GVPlus, the 1978 X1/9 & 1979 128 were the last Fiat SOHC 1300's we ever received here in the USA.
     
  10. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
  11. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    138A is indeed a 1300... 138A2 is a 1500 (128A is 1100, 128A1 is 1300) second generation... well they are identical in all ways except for the numbered casting to the 128A1 block, but like a 1500 use 10 bolts (M10) to hold the head on.

    the 1300 differs from an 1100 at the rear of the block...1300 has a water jacket steel plate...the 1100 has a pressed in core plug...the steel plate will interfere with the original 1100 transmission bellhousing, so you will need to surgically cut a notch into the top face of the bellhousing for the engine and transmission to mate.

    Depending on what year your 128 is, you need to be aware of the two different pressure plate heights... the tall pressure plate will not fit the early bellhousing... if the transmission is from a 1972/73 or later car, then it's not a problem (differences in the shape of the casting will foul the tall pressure plate and it will touch)

    Of course you will need to swap all the engine mounts and support cross member from the 1100 engine... and again due to differences at the front of the block (steel water jacket plate again) the cast alloy front engine mounting will no fit... not straight on anyway... you can get creative and again sugically remove material...or just buy a cast alloy engine mount for the 1300 and it will go straight on.

    SteveC
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    kmead likes this.
  12. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
    ..so if i understand well, installing a 1.3 "138" or a 1.3 "128" does involve the same modifications (mainly cutting a notch into the top face of the bellhousing)..correct? so if i source a 4 speed from a 1.3 128, the swap will be hassle free?

    i sourced a 1.3 "138" from an early ritmo 75S, a 1.5 from a ritmo cabrio85 restyling (mark2 model), and a 1.3 from a 128 rally (128AS..)

    i suppose that with any of these engines i will have to cut that notch..correct? the ritmo75s motor can be purchased complete with its gearbox 5 speed..but with this combo i must cut a notch in the body of the car (apart the job needed to let the gear lever shift to fifth gear..)
     
  13. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Cutting a notch in the bellhousing isn't hard, doesn't need to be very precise, just so it clears and doesn't look too horrible. You will need the 1300 or 1500 tinware between the engine and transmission that comes with the replacement motor too, as it is also shaped to fit around the bolted on water jacket plate.

    1300 ritmo 138 is a ritmo 65... ritmo 75 transmission I think is the type with inner CV joints not tripodes like the 128 has... ritmo 65S five speed will actually fit the body (wont fit a sedan but will fit a coupe / 3p)

    SteveC
     
  14. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
    Steve, i know it's not easy, but there was the 1300 ritmo 65 (soft tuned with 65hp) and the 1300 ritmo 75S (same tuning as 128 coupe\lancia delta, so twin carb\good camshaft, producing 75hp).. to add confusion, the ritmo 75 (without the "S") was a 1500 "soft tuned" (single carburetor), of course there was also a ritmo 85S (1500 motor, twin carb, 85 hp).. the "S" ritmos also had rich interiors and body finishing, and where only produced in 1980..

    so what i understand is that 128 4 speed gerboxes 1100\1300 are different.. so if i found a 128 1300 gearbox can mate it with the 128 AR motor avoiding notches cutting... but if i go with the ritmo motor, i need all the ritmo stuff (gearbox, diff, axles etc.)

    i'm trying to acquire the most complete info on this swap, because i dont have a personal shed\garage, and must carry out the job in the mechanic's shop.. so i want all will go straight with no problems
     
  15. ghostdancing

    ghostdancing True Classic

    Location:
    italy
    well it ended purchasing a 1300 from a ritmo 75S, that i currently have at home waiting for service before the transplant in the car..

    but i also had a deeper look of what i have currently in my engine bay, and remembering the steve's words i looked at that water jacket plug in the flywheel side of the motor..surprise: it's a steel plate with screws, not a pressed core: so i alredy have a 1300, not a 1100 on the car!

    problem is that by "seat of the pants" feeling it produces 50 hp..ok, it's pretty stuffed (when hot the exhaust gas come from the crakcase vent, not from the muffler..), but apart this no bad noises, little oil consumption, no water consumption, start promptly an does accelerate smooth..only it doesnt make the 75 hp that should do..

    mechanic says the only think that can theft me so many ponies it's a badly worn camshaft (didnt look in there yet, but the cam lobe that can be seen trough the oil cap seem to be ok..)

    btw i remember a fiat UNO 55 (1116 motor, mark 1 1984), one of the first cars i drove (was the first girlfriend's father car) that was really fast ..ok i was young an my car was a mark1 ford escort 940cc (super small displacement only for italian market.. probably one of the slowest car ever made)
     

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