24 hours of lemons build and VW VR6 swap.

Precisely why LeMons racing has become SO popular and why the IOE is the highest award at LeMons.
Much about sharing an activity with peers seeking similar place to play and do their thing.

Think Burning Man with motos...

Bernice


Forget about trophies. When I raced bikes which definitely had a danger element to it we would get crappy trophies. My nephews who did karate competition as pre-teens go trophies taller than they were.

Do your sport, whatever sport it is, because you want to, not because you get trophies, peer recognition or ego enhancement.
 
Lemons was my introduction to racing starting about 7 years ago. I was lucky enough to win the IOE with an X1/9 in my second race. That particular weekend was a slightly different configuration we raced a straight 14 hours (10 am-12 midnight) Instead of the two day format. The car held on, but finished the race with no clutch and no rear brakes. Drove from 10:30-Midnight that way.

I agree with the previous posts regarding keeping the engine mostly stock. The down fall of the car was trying to increase horsepower. This usually caused the car to break down the 2nd day. Sometimes in spectacular fashion. Keeping the engine cool is a must. That was the downfall with most of the failures I had. Sometimes as simple as losing a coolant hose.


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Thanks for the advice. Yep, the plan is to keep the engine entirely stock and run it until it gives up. Hopefully, at that point we'll have enough seat time to be comfortable with more power from a modern-ish swap.

Got my scirocco radiator, and that will go in soon. I see a lot of people have cut holes in the air dam behind the radiator and made ducts to holes out the hood. Does anyone have a sense of if this actually helps? I'm no aerodynamicist, and could see it potentially making things worse if done incorrectly. But if anyone has an idea of if it helps, and by how much, that'd be interesting as it would be a simple change that only costs time since it's just cutting :) Like this:

hillclimb.jpg


The almost 90 degree change of direction for airflow just inches behind the radiator in the stock layout clearly works, but seems like maybe there could be an improvement there.
 
Stick with the stock power train until you've done enough track time in the exxe, know precisely what it is, lear most of what this chassis is capable of and what it is not capable of with the proper tires, wheels, suspension set up.

Keep in mind Steve Holscher is a professional driving instructor for pro drivers and know how to set up a car specially the exxe in ways most would have zero clue. When it's time, we can help with this. I've tweaked the Rotary powered LeMons exxe chassis-suspension and... for about a decade now. There is NO idea set up, only a different set of trade offs depending on what a given driver would like the car to do... LeMons cars have more than one driver and this is always a trade off.

That is a no on altering the cooling. Bertone spent a HUGE amount of wind tunnel time to make sure the cooling system works under the hottest and most difficult conditions. That area behind the radiator creates a low pressure area to help the air flow in ways not obvious. What is important, there is a "chin spoiler" just under the front bumper, it is designed specifically to move air into the radiator. That entire front end is designed as a system and cools with zero problem in 100+ degree track conditions... Long as the cooling system is in as new condition, properly air purged, and absolutely zero leaks. BTW, water transfers heat better than anti-freeze mix.

Bertone and the folks who designed the Lambo Miura learned how difficult it can be to keep a mid engine car cool. All of what was learned got applied into the exxe. Small thing that can help is to remove the plastic screen moulded into the side scoops and remove the rain tray on the engine cover.

Don't alter anything else on this LeMons exxe.

As for engine swaps. Discuss this after your first LeMons race. This is a very common LeMons activity and one that nearly always results in a disaster or why majority of power train swap cars get put into Class C.. does not matter what get's put in, first time.. Class C.


Bernice

Thanks for the advice. Yep, the plan is to keep the engine entirely stock and run it until it gives up. Hopefully, at that point we'll have enough seat time to be comfortable with more power from a modern-ish swap.

Got my scirocco radiator, and that will go in soon. I see a lot of people have cut holes in the air dam behind the radiator and made ducts to holes out the hood. Does anyone have a sense of if this actually helps? I'm no aerodynamicist, and could see it potentially making things worse if done incorrectly. But if anyone has an idea of if it helps, and by how much, that'd be interesting as it would be a simple change that only costs time since it's just cutting :) Like this:

The almost 90 degree change of direction for airflow just inches behind the radiator in the stock layout clearly works, but seems like maybe there could be an improvement there.
 
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What is important, there is a "chin spoiler" just under the front bumper, it is designed specifically to move air into the radiator.
That's helpful, thanks. This piece is definitely missing on my car. I'll make one out of something.
 
I agree with the previous posts regarding keeping the engine mostly stock. The down fall of the car was trying to increase horsepower.

@bg82x it looks like you're running wider wheels, and I'm assuming spacers. Any issue with wheel bearings crapping out? I know that stuff on the 1500 is quite a bit beefier than the 1300. Interested if there are things to watch out for here.
 
My car was a 1974 chassis. I swapped in the suspension from a 1500 car. That way I had the more durable bearings. I also used 15" steel rims from a newer Fiat 500. At the time lots of people were upgrading there wheels on there 500 so the 15" "steelies" were cheap and plentiful. Plus reasonable cost lemons tires in the 15" size. I used a 1" spacer and cut the wheel arches a bit to clear everything for full steering. Tire size was 195/50/15. I ran about 9 races with the car and never had a bearing issue. I came close to winning class C several times, but during the 2nd day something seemed to go wrong just enough to lose the lead. I retired that car, then upgraded to a more modern/reliable class B car. I also bought "Roosters" 1979 "Booger" X1/9 which I race in the GT4 class in the Midwest Council when it's running anyway.
 

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That's helpful, thanks. This piece is definitely missing on my car. I'll make one out of something.


Important note: Lots of people would knock the spoiler off and think nothing of it. Then wonder why the car would overheat.

Since you asked.... Bernice is correct about the radiator placement and cooling capability. Fiat did spend a lot of time on making the cooling system (which includes airflow through the radiator) work properly. If the system is healthy, it WILL NOT overheat. I have raced these cars for many years as well as having street driven them. I daily'ed a '77 1300 for many years, from high school through college and on to my first job. Overheating was seldom a problem if I kept the maintenance up.

Back to the radiator; the spoiler directs airflow into the radiator and creates a negative pressure area behind the spoiler which draws airflow out from the radiator box and exhausts it under the car. This works nicely for a street car and will probably serve you Lemmons car nicely. However, once you start down the path of improving performance, that is something that can benefit from improvement.

You asked about venting the radiator through the hood and posted a photo of Manuel Dondi's hillclimb X1/9. If you research competition X1/9s, including the Abarth and FAZA cars you will see most have vents in the hood. These are in fact radiator vents. Their function to improve airflow is only a secondary consideration. The primary purpose is to reduce high-speed front end lift by directing the normal airflow from under the car to over the car. The resulting pressure differential creates a net downforce on the front end and can significantly improve front end (and in some cases, overall) grip.

Virtually all modern, factory built, GT racing cars vent the radiator through the hood for this reason. But just cutting a hole in the hood isn't a good idea but sadly is what far too many people do. The area and placement of the vent is critical. Make the hole too big and you stall the airflow. Make the hole too small and you won't have enough flow to remove enough heat. If you place the vent too close to the base of the windshield the high pressure generated there will impede flow. You'll note on Dondi's car that the vents (extractors) are canted toward the sides. This is to direct the flow away from the high pressure area at the base of the windshield. However, those would be far more efficient if he had added a lip spoiler to the leading edge of the opening. This helps create a low pressure area over the vent to assist in venting from the radiator.

I did this very modification to my MR2 racecar. The radiator was relocated and canted forward to improve its position for maximizing airflow and assist in directing the airflow out the vent in the hood. I was also able to find some crude wind tunnel test data as well as some CFD modeling to identify the point of negative pressure on the hood and that is where I placed the vent.

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Coupling the hood vent and radiator relocation with the new lower front fascia and splitter and the car gained significant front end grip. This project was a fun way for me to apply the work I do on a daily basis to my own racecar and see how my design and execution actually worked.
 
Before any design element is modified on an exxe, understand and deeply consider why it was designed that way and why the change is needed. Keep in mind the folks that designed the exxe worked on the Lambo Miura and more... they know what they are doing and there were very good reasons why they did what they did.


Bernice
 
IMO, I am no a fiat engineer when the X was designed, but I think part of the reason for the ducting they chose was because of the constraints they had. I am a software engineer and there are times that because of what the design wanted, I had to do things that are not as efficient in order to maintain that. In the fiat, I would believe that being able to stow the targa when not in use was pretty high up the list. So keeping that in mind, the engineers couldn't utilize going through the frunk. the next best thing was to duct down. SO, yes one must understand why it was designed the way it was. I wasnt there, I dont know. I can just speculate. Knowing that being able to stow the targa is important to me is one reason why I have not vented through the Frunk hood. Braden has experimented (with good results) venting out to the wheel well leaving room for the targa still up front. Why didnt Fiat do that? possibly space? as advertising how much luggage space in the X was surely part of selling them.
I do not know why they did what they did. but I do know as I live in Michgan and have SEVERAL family and friends that get frustrated with the higher ups putting the brakes on things that would be better for the car in the long run. Manufacturing is about making money. period. if it costs less to vent under the car and it doesnt hurt it, they do it, even if there might have been a better way of doing it.

just my 2 cents.

Odie
 
Production cars are all about compromises. Cost, packaging, manufacturing, materials, styling, efficiency, functionality, are all factors that influence design. I have had opportunity to do consulting work for a couple of manufacturers on production car programs, usually in a testing role. I struggle with those because the design criteria often compromises what I think is most effective. I do understand, but it has been enlightening.

Venting the radiator under the car is normal production car procedure. Note that even on front engine cars that's where the radiator airflow is vented. We are starting to see some exceptions in some performance cars. The Viper, with its massive vents in the hood are a good example. I would note that when Supercars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and Bentley are redesigned into GT3 Racing cars the front mounted radiators all get vented up, or out, instead of out the bottom as was practice on the production model.

There are manufacturers that vent out the wheel wells. Its not uncommon for oil coolers to be done that way. Its not significantly different to aero to vent through the front wheel wells than under the nose. It still creates some high pressure in the wheel wells. You can reduce that with some aero tricks like venting the tops of the fenders or deflecting air out from the wheel opening.

Bottom line, there certainly are reasons for venting the radiator under the car instead of over. The thing to remember is that a car is a highly developed system. Changing one aspect of any system will affect other aspects of that system. Venting the radiator out the hood will eliminate the ability to store the roof in the frunk. It will also mean that the cockpit will get quite a bit of hot air on hot days. And the aero change needs to be tested to ensure there is adequate flow in the range of conditions. Its just not as easy as people first think.
 
Don't forget that the vents could be blocked by snow and thus cause the X to overheat even though there are four inches of snow on the ground!
 
Having spent significant time chatting with Dave Coleman (Mazda USA's chassis guy https://www.autoweek.com/news/a1897151/former-car-writer-has-dream-job-mazda-rd/)

Discussing chassis-suspension stuff at LeMons races, it becomes very apparent what can work for the majority of drivers and what absolutely does not. Moto folks can have a very different idea-belief of what and how a given chassis-suspension should be, except that is often not what the majority of new car buyers want or expect. Add to this a very long list of real world chassis behaviors that must work
for drivers that are not highly skilled at controlling a motor vehicle. Trying to come up with a reasonable balance between what is fun to driver for the moto enthusiast with good driving skills and most drivers with lesser driving skills and ability is not simple or easy.

Again, there are good reasons why manufactures set up their chassis-suspensions in the ways they do. Know this before applying judgement of how or why it is perceived as "inferior"..


Bernice


Production cars are all about compromises. Cost, packaging, manufacturing, materials, styling, efficiency, functionality, are all factors that influence design. I have had opportunity to do consulting work for a couple of manufacturers on production car programs, usually in a testing role. I struggle with those because the design criteria often compromises what I think is most effective. I do understand, but it has been enlightening.

Its just not as easy as people first think.
 
I love these discussions.

Well, that's all I need to indulge you ( me actually ;) )

That and I am stuck with nowhere to go and nothing much to do this week. :(

Bernice's comment about setups that suite a range of drivers hits me pretty close to home. I will note that setup for a production road (sports) car and a racing car are two completely different worlds. The road car must first and foremost be safe. Secondary considerations are things like; stablity, ride quality, driver confidence, etc... and then further down the list you find handling. A racecar is designed and setup to produce competitive lap times. How that manifests itself depends on a couple of key factors and I'll get to that in a minute.

When I am engineering for my IMSA clients I typically have to setup a car for a team of drivers. Typically 4 at the Rolex and two or three the rest of the season, and that is where the problems start. The problems come from having to deal with the modern reality that most driver teams in Pro Racing are comprised of a pairing of Pro Drivers and Gentleman Drivers. The Pro's are paid to drive and the Gentlemen pay for their opportunity to drive. The distinction is fundamental to how the racecar is setup.

To understand the distinction its important to understand that "feel" is not what makes a racecar fast. Feel is what makes the driver comfortable and hopefully, that will make the driver fast. When I setup a car for a Pro driver I don't ask him about feel. I ask him for his perception of what the car is doing. I'll go through the whole lap, a turn at at time and review; corner entry, mid corner and corner exit. A Pro driver is expected to be able to be able to recall this information after only a very few laps. Generally, a couple to get the tires up to temperature and a couple of clear flyers to figure out what's going on. He's a Professional and this is what I expect of a Pro. If he can't he won't be around long.

During the debrief I review the video and data from the session to compare what I am seeing to what the driver is telling me. From the two sources of information it is my job to then review the car's current setup and determine what changes will improve the car's performance. After a couple of cycles of capturing data and review the car should be close to being optimized, assuming I am doing my job. As a secondary consideration I will discuss any driver complaints about feel, which is really confidence. A good Pro should be able to adapt to any setup that can produce good lap times, despite how the car may feel.

A Gentleman driver is a completely different scenario. Typically, I'll get a baseline setup with the Pro and then put the Gentleman driver(s) in. They will need more track time to learn the track and car. And it will take me longer to adapt both the driver and the car. My first task is to identify the Gentleman driver's techniques, both good and bad. This will help me understand if he is causing the issue he is complaining about (common). It will also help me understand what makes him comfortable with the car's setup. Unlike the Pro, the Gentleman's skill set is much more limited and for him to produce a good lap time requires the car to inspire confidence more than any other characteristic. If the GD is not comfortable, he is likely unable to drive the car anywhere near its full potential. To gain that level of comfort means compromise. Example: I'll dial in more rear wing to give more rear grip at speed, at the expense of top speed (and the ability to pass at the end of the longest straight) because the Gentleman simply lacks the finely honed skill set to manage a car, at the limit, that is that finely balanced.

Optimizing a setup for Pro driver is pretty straight forward. As the engineer my job is to make the car fast and the driver's job is to drive it. Personal tastes are secondary. For the Gentleman personal taste (comfort) is primary and its my job to manage that with as little compromise as possible.

My other job, as driver coach, is providing both Pros and Gentlemen with feedback as to their execution. With the Pro, I am critiquing his lap to show him, usually in the details of the data, where he can find more speed. Note that most all Pro Athletes (from Pro Golfers to Pro Quarterbacks) have coaches. I refinement of a line, or technique when I see that there is an opportunity for improvement. With the Gentleman I am trying to build his skillset. Teach him fundamentals that he hasn't mastered. Apply those to the particular track. Show him where he needs improvement or correct his errors. Show him how he can learn to go faster by making better use of the car or line.

The club racer tends to fall more into the form of the gentleman driver. He isn't a pro and races for fun. So feel/confidence is key to his setup. The problem is most club racers have had little if any professional instruction and therefore they haven't mastered the fundamentals, if they even know what they are. I often find, with club racers and gentlemen drivers, that their complaints about the car's balance results from their poor technique.

I should note that there are many club racers that are as, or more, talented as some Pros. They just haven't had the opportunity to move into pro racing.
 
@rozap I sold you the wheels and have been wondering off and on about how the project has been going. Great to see you're making progress, good luck with it. Lots of very well informed people here on how to make an X1/9 track-ready, so take advantage.
 
Really wonderful for Steve to share some of this here on Xweb.

One item that has Steve shared with me years ago is how chassis-suspensions-cars with bad habits can drive the ways it's driver runs the car learning bad driving habits that can be difficult to change.

Early in our LeMons racing, one of our drivers does track days in a Porsche GT-3, the complaining about not enough power was constant.
Made me groan. His driving style was to essentially use the acceleration of the GT-3 to make up for all sorts of driver bad habits, from less than ideal place for corner entry, not pointing the car into the proper corner apex, applying power in the less than ideal corner exit...

Not gonna alter the chassis-suspension set up for one driver when the other drivers were ok the set up, disregarding the perception of lacking power. What the exxe did was to enforce the need to be as smooth as possible, take a line that is amenable to conserve momentum and not slow down any more than absolutely needed. Eventually being forced to drive a lower power car with a GOOD chassis, wheels & tires improved this driver's driving and ability.

Make it a point to chat with driving instructors when possible during our track testing days. Ya gotta hand it to these folks as some of what they are forced to put up with is at times remarkable. One driving instructor told me, he made it mandatory for the students to turn off all electronic driving aids or they are not going on track. This is when driving student encounters what their ride is actually doing and how those electronic drive aids can produce lethal results on pubic roads.

My daily driver is a 1991, Saab 9000 turbo (nearly 440,xzy miles) it is 100% stock suspension, on current performance tires of the day in the stock size of 205/50/16 on stock wheels. There is no question this 9000T understeers more than is should, has the ability to tire spin on corner exit and lots more. There has been absolutely zero incentive to alter it's chassis-suspension set up as it is a daily driver in rain, cold and all. Under these conditions the chassis-suspension and all MUST be forgiving and safe in unpredictable conditions. IMO, the folks at Saab did a pretty good job at trading off the chassis-suspension for performance driving while being forgiving enough for unpredictable real road conditions. This does NOT hold true for the 74' exxe as it has a completely different mission in it's life and is set up completely different than the Saab 9000T.

Bernice
 
@ Steve H, great explaination or a race engineers job.

@ Bernice, the Saab 9000 is semi Fiat... pretty sure that chassis was developed in conjunction with Fiat/Lancia/Alfa as the Fiat Croma and Lancia Thema (I think) and a model of Alfa Romeo all share a common platform and suspension setup, but use different drivetrains.

Lemons is quite new in Australia, but yes $150 donor car and the challenge is on... my number one rule... add lightness, so first job was to break out the grinder and go nuts removing every tag , bracket and panel that gets in the way, makes it more difficult to work on, and is weight thats not needed... then stripped all the filler and sound deadener off, and finally (for now) applied with a roller a coat of industrial metal etch primer to stop the old girl from getting any rustier.

My plan for cooling is move the radiator back (so it's less likely to be damaged in a collision) and vent out into the wheel wells.

SteveC

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SteveC
 
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I should note that there are many club racers that are as, or more, talented as some Pros. They just haven't had the opportunity to move into pro racing.
I've heard similar sentiments from a team owner who had both pro and AM drivers. I've seen and raced with club racers that were very impressive and I feel could have easily run with the pros - if they had chosen/had the right opportunities. For folks like those talented drivers I think the lack of track time is the biggest difference between the top tier pros and amateurs.
I admire any driver who can be fast in poorly set up cars. Sometimes you're not allowed to optimize a car (spec series) and that's where some really great racing occurs!
 
Bernice, your desire to keep the Saab as a real street car is heavily reinforced by the fact that you race cars. Once I started doing track days, my desire to drive like a moron on the street significantly dropped off. Also, nothing like driving home from a track day in my Fiat with 40 psi still in the tires.

Steve H, one question for you. With all the electronic adjustments in race cars today, do you have two "settings" for the pro driver and the gentleman driver so as driver changes are made a switch is hit for the right driving mode?
 
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