24 hours of lemons build and VW VR6 swap.

[Rupunzell]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

The bolt in the bleed hose is temporary until I can get something done on the lathe.
~Good~ This is a VERY important aspect of the cooling system.

Pads are new and are these ones
~Those are not gonna work for endurance racing. They will be roasted in short time. It's been so long since we ran the stock set up on the LeMons car, don't remember which Porterfield pads we use. Do spend the $ to get brake pads that are going survive endurance racing.

:: #1 Race Specialist in The World :: �

~On the rear, we used Gen ! Mazda RX7 rear pads from Hawk. They are Ferro carbon, works OK for endurance race conditions. Some track testing will need to be done to figure out proper brake balance with various pads. Might have some notes on what we did, but will need some digging to find it as that was more than a decade ago.

Lines (and master cylinder and all caliper seals) are new and are OE.
~Stock caliper seals and master is acceptable, Stock brake hoses are not. They expand too much to deliver proper brake pedal feel for the drivers. Order up the teflon-metal braid ones from Goodridge (UK or EU) or similar from a US of A supplier.

Sounds like front calipers are the way to go here. I'll track some down. No need to change the brake carriers? Or are those different front to rear?
~Same caliper carriers. Remove caliper slider wedge pins, slide out the caliper wedges, remove the rear caliper and all parking brake related items, slide the front caliper (they are handed, and can use the same rear brake hose. Hose fitting threads on calipers are 3/8-24 tpi) in to the caliper bracket, install the wedges. Make ABSOLUTE sure the wedges are clean and NOT bent. They must be well lubricated with high quality moly grease. If not, the wedges will not slide properly causing a long list of odd brake behavior.


Plans for the cage are to more or less copy another member who has been running an X19 for the last year. I think his username is on here is @TheTallOne. He sent me some pictures, so we'll be going off of that with some adjustments due to driver height and seat differences. The rules specify everything well.

~Make absolute sure the cage to be made meets current LeMons requirements as their requirements have progressively changed every season. Get this wrong in any way the LeMons folks will bounce the car no iffs or butts. Ascertain all drivers will properly fit in this exxe.
Don't hack off the top or windshield (PBS style) as that will make passing LeMons tech more difficult.
If the tallest driver cannot achieve the specified helmet to top of the cage gap, drop the floor pan to achieve the gap specified. Pad the seat as need to get the shortest driver up to the proper driver position and make sure all driver fit components are easy to remove-install as this will need to happen often during a LeMons race.

Strong seat mounting is must, each belt anchoring point (industry standard heat belt hardware is 7/16"-20 thread) must be strong enough to lift more than the weight of the car, race seat is another item that must fit all the drivers of this exxe and the seat must be a proper race seat that clamps the driver into the car not allowing any body movement. There is no possible way to properly drive a race car if the driver is sliding around in the driver seat. Consider making a expanding foam seat adder for smaller drivers if needed. It is imperative all drivers achieve proper fit into this race car.
Belts must work with a Hans Device as the hans Device is now mandatory for LeMons.

Gilles Villeneuve was killed instantly after being ejected from the car due to a failure in seat belt mounting. BTW, Gilles Villeneuve was an x1/9 owner/driver.

Bernice

 

[kmead]

The rear calipers will work with the existing carriers. You will need the front hoses as I recall.

You will need to plumb in the proportioning valve. You need to decide if you trust the driver or have it be a crew adjustable/accessible unit. It could live where the old e brake plate was. Set it up for dry and for wet with the two marked settings (there will be a difference). Bernice would be your resource for sure on this.

 

[Triumph675]

Bernice,
I just bought one that I also plan on running at LeMons next year here in Shelton, WA which should make for two exxe's at the track that day hopefully

Mine will be a K20 swap. Do you have recommendations on tire size? Did you do anything special for the wheel bearings or just stock replacements? given the budget I will not be able to do much on the suspension but is there anything I should make sure to check/replace? I plan on doing the recommended front calipers in place of the stock rears and have bookmarked the recommended brake site, are you running the -E compound brakes?

It is important to note that this is my first X1/9....

 

[rozap]

Small update...have been making cage progress. It's slow because we're trying to get the fit up as close to perfect as possible, and we havent built a cage before. Just have a few elements like driver door bars and back stays to knock out. Overall I'm happy with how it's shaping up, though it looks goofy because one guy on our team is 6'5", so the main hoop has to extend pretty far up for us to meet the requirements. Will post pics when it's done. Attached an older pic from before we did the other A-pillar element.

Also got a spare transaxle from a forum member here

 

[rozap]

Another small update. Cage is finally done. The whole pandemic thing really made progress slow.

Got a quick release wheel.

And the other reason for slow progress. Got a new thing. Doesn't need a ton of work but it's where my mind has been lately.

 

[rozap]

Cage is done. We've been working on a bunch of little things. Lots of work the instrumentation. Added an oil pressure, oil temperature, and coolant pressure. Still have a bunch of little things to do, but we've entered the July 24th race at Oregon Raceway Park, so there's no turning back now. It's going to be hot as hell, so I'm glad the radiator is a bit bigger. Whether or not we can cope with the heat remains to be seen. I'd like to do a cool shirt but I don't know if I'll have time to put it together.

Planning to bring a spare transmission, clutch, front and rear wheel bearings, CV joint, V belts, tires, fuel pump, filter, and ignition control modules. I'd like to grab some spare fully assembled axles, but I haven't found any used ones.

I do have a question. I had to replace the coolant return tube since the old one was pitted and leaking. MWB sells this https://www.midwest-bayless.com/Fia...eturn-tube-no-taps-fiat-x19-128-yugo-new.aspx which lacks a tap for the heater core return. Am I correct in thinking I can just plug the line from the head that goes up to the heater core? My understanding is that the valve in the heater core actually stops the flow of coolant, so it'd be safe to plug that line out from the head and remove the heater core entirely, since that'd be the same thing as the heater core valve being off. That'd greatly simplify things.

 

[ng_randolph]

I do have a question. I had to replace the coolant return tube since the old one was pitted and leaking. MWB sells this https://www.midwest-bayless.com/Fia...eturn-tube-no-taps-fiat-x19-128-yugo-new.aspx which lacks a tap for the heater core return. Am I correct in thinking I can just plug the line from the head that goes up to the heater core? My understanding is that the valve in the heater core actually stops the flow of coolant, so it'd be safe to plug that line out from the head and remove the heater core entirely, since that'd be the same thing as the heater core valve being off. That'd greatly simplify things.

Normally, the pressure is about the same on both sides of the heater control valve, and it will regulate the flow of coolant just fine. If you leave the output of the heater core open to atmosphere, you are asking the heater control valve to hold the full pressure of the cooling system, which it will not do. You will need to either plug the output of the heater core or, even better, plug the supply line to the heater core closer to the engine.

Cool instrumentation, btw. The Dymo labels certainly are period correct.

 

[MikeHynes]

I do have a question. I had to replace the coolant return tube since the old one was pitted and leaking. MWB sells this https://www.midwest-bayless.com/Fia...eturn-tube-no-taps-fiat-x19-128-yugo-new.aspx which lacks a tap for the heater core return. Am I correct in thinking I can just plug the line from the head that goes up to the heater core? My understanding is that the valve in the heater core actually stops the flow of coolant, so it'd be safe to plug that line out from the head and remove the heater core entirely, since that'd be the same thing as the heater core valve being off. That'd greatly simplify things.

+1 on the spares package, complete axles would be a big plus though.

Just plug the heater outlet from the head and take the heater core and hoses out of the car. (Leave the defroster gubbins in place. That's the only thing you need in there.)
I plug the heater outlet hole in the head with a water temp idiot light sender.
Nice instrument cluster!

 

[rozap]

Awesome, thanks for the confirmation! Will plug it on the head and remove the extras.

Yea, If I could track down a set of 5spd axles (either in Seattle or Portland) I'd feel better. Ideally I'd bring a spare engine but that seems like a longshot.

 

[fastx19]

I would find a couple of backup shift linkage adapters, or be prepared to unbend them. For us when we were doing lemons with the X, that was the biggest issue. We never had problems with the car running, outside of it going down on power due to us not running a proper air cleaner which then lead to lower compression. Just go and enjoy!

 

[rozap]

@fastx19 which part do you mean? on the gearbox side or the shifter side? i haven't looked at how it's set up, as that's one of the parts of the car that I haven't had to mess with so far.

 

[Oxnardo_Ring]

Someone will have to explain the $500 rule as I see all these cars costing way more than that. I don't really follow this series but I gather all safety items are excluded from the $500 limit.

Yep, this. And then there's the banter and the "look-the-other-way" from the judges. Makes for great stories.
But, yeah, anybody truly "trying to keep within the spirit of the $500" limit, while seeing people turn up with full race-prepped 2JZ's, must feel like a Division III club football team watching the Alabama Crimson Tide warming up across the field.

Still a lotta fun, but the rules are bent pretty hard, pretty often, these days.

 

[rozap]

Yep, this. And then there's the banter and the "look-the-other-way" from the judges. Makes for great stories.
But, yeah, anybody truly "trying to keep within the spirit of the $500" limit, while seeing people turn up with full race-prepped 2JZ's, must feel like a Division III club football team watching the Alabama Crimson Tide warming up across the field.

Still a lotta fun, but the rules are bent pretty hard, pretty often, these days.

FWIW this is what our current ledger looks like:

So we're $482 over, though we still have some stuff (windows, window regulators, some more things) we need to sell off. There are definitely teams that spend a ton or have access to cheap parts/fabrication. We haven't done any of those things, nor have we gotten creative with our accounting. If we get penalty laps, that's fine, we're not going to be competitive anyway.

 

[fastx19]

@fastx19 which part do you mean? on the gearbox side or the shifter side? i haven't looked at how it's set up, as that's one of the parts of the car that I haven't had to mess with so far.

This part. Ham fisted drivers will bend it to hell causing all types of shifting problems.

And don't forget to have some spares of these.

 

[carl]

I put two bolts through the lollipop after I had a new one fail. I do that on all my Xs and 128s now. I assumed racers would make their own connector out of a single piece of metal.

 

[rozap]

Back from the Pacific Northworst GP at Oregon Raceway Park. We had 3 drivers. We passed tech with no issues.

On day 1 we started out with short, 20 minute stints. Our only goal was that everyone gets a chance to drive before we blow it up, so we all took it easy. I started, the car was running well. I immediately got the black flag since our transponder wasn't working. Came in, got it fixed, went back out. By this point the whole field had warmed up and was going. I came out and immediately got buzzed by a BMW swapped corvette. This was my first time on a track and it was pretty overwhelming, but I settled into it.

Our next driver (named Peaches) went out, and immediately got hit on the rear right fender by someone trying to send it up the inside of the last turn. We brought the car in, hammered out the fender, added duct tape, and sent our next driver (named Giacomo) out.

We all cycled through some short stints until our telemetry started reading 0 oil pressure, so I got called in and we confirmed with a mechanical gauge that the engine was healthy. So our amazon sensor had failed us (more later). We go back out with no working oil pressure gauge. Day 1 ends and we're feeling pretty good about ourselves, until another driver tells me he saw white smoke from our car.

Morning of day 2 and I fire up the car to look for a puff of white smoke, and see nothing. But the exhaust had loosened itself so we fix that. Then the session starts and I go out. After getting the car up to temperature, I see a cloud of white smoke behind me, and I bring it in. We have a huge oil leak at this point. We trace the source to that same shitty amazon oil pressure sensor and we plug it with another one we have. So the sensor failed and was leaking oil from around the electrical connector. Then I go out again and the leak is fixed.

I'm sitting in the pits when a call from Giacomo comes in to check the telemetry and I see 10.5 volts on our readout, assuming the belt has failed, so I tell them to shut off the car, but it's too late, already in the paddock. The temperature gauge is pinned and the water in the cooling system is boiling out of the overflow. We replace the belt and let the car cool off, hoping it didn't get ruined. Fire the car back up and no evidence of a head gasket failure, so we go back out and finish day 2.

We managed 176 laps. The car was so much fun in the twisty sections of the track, and I could keep up with much faster cars, but we would get absolutely mugged on the straights. We're running Yokohama Advan Flevas 195-50-15, so a bit wider than most x19s, and the car felt super planted. The way that the car rotates is so predictable, probably because we were never actually going that fast, but it was a blast to drive. It was also incredibly forgiving. I wasn't pushing too hard, but I was able to pretty easily correct every mistake I made. Peaches and Giacomo each had a spin, but they found it pretty forgiving too.

The brakes on the car were awful and didn't inspire any confidence. We had brake fade all weekend, which made it tough to heel-toe due to the long throw. This is the first thing I think I'd like to fix on the car. Definitely vented rotors at the minimum, but I think also we will ditch the sliding calipers, since the pads aren't wearing very evenly. I could still lock the brakes up so they "worked" but it was impossible to tell when that was coming.

Overall it was an incredible weekend. Everything went so much better than we expected. The issues that we did have were pretty minor and outside of them and the brakes, the car ran flawlessly. The ambient temperature was around 95 F, and the coolant temperature never went above 200. We ramped up the intensity as we all got comfortable with the car, and the car rewarded us. We won the judge's choice award for driving a Fiat, being rookies, and not being assholes, so we came home with a trophy.

Thanks everyone here for all the advice and comments, it has been really helpful and I'm very grateful for it, since it helped to get us here.

 

[kmead]

Back from the Pacific Northworst GP at Oregon Raceway Park. We had 3 drivers. We passed tech with no issues.

On day 1 we started out with short, 20 minute stints. Our only goal was that everyone gets a chance to drive before we blow it up, so we all took it easy. I started, the car was running well. I immediately got the black flag since our transponder wasn't working. Came in, got it fixed, went back out. By this point the whole field had warmed up and was going. I came out and immediately got buzzed by a BMW swapped corvette. This was my first time on a track and it was pretty overwhelming, but I settled into it.

Our next driver (named Peaches) went out, and immediately got hit by someone trying to sneak up the inside of the last turn. We brought the car in, hammered out the fender, added duct tape, and sent our next driver (named Giacomo) out.

We all cycled through some short stints until our telemetry started reading 0 oil pressure, so I got called in and we confirmed with a mechanical gauge that the engine was healthy. So our amazon sensor had failed us (more later). We go back out with no working oil pressure gauge. Day 1 ends and we're feeling pretty good about ourselves, until another driver tells me he saw white smoke from our car.

Morning of day 2 and I fire up the car to look for a puff of white smoke, and see nothing. But the exhaust had loosened itself so we fix that. Then the session starts and I go out. After getting the car up to temperature, I see a cloud of white smoke behind me, and I bring it in. We have a huge oil leak at this point. We trace the source to that same shitty amazon oil pressure sensor and we plug it with another one we have. So the sensor failed and was leaking oil from around the electrical connector. Then I go out again and the leak is fixed.

I'm sitting in the pits when a call from Giacomo comes in to check the telemetry and I see 10.5 volts on our readout, assuming the belt has failed, so I tell them to shut off the car, but it's too late, already in the paddock. The temperature gauge is pinned and the water in the cooling system is boiling out of the overflow. We replace the belt and let the car cool off, hoping it didn't get ruined. Fire the car back up and no evidence of a head gasket failure, so we go back out and finish day 2.

We managed 176 laps. The car was so much fun in the twisty sections of the track, and I could keep up with much faster cars, but we would get absolutely mugged on the straights. We're running Yokohama Advan Flevas 195-50-15, so a bit wider than most x19s, and the car felt super planted. The way that the car rotates is so predictable, probably because we were never actually going that fast, but it was a blast to drive. It was also incredibly forgiving. I wasn't pushing too hard, but I was able to pretty easily correct every mistake I made. Peaches and Giacomo each had a spin, but they found it pretty forgiving too.

The brakes on the car were awful and didn't inspire any confidence. We had brake fade all weekend, which made it tough to heel-toe due to the long throw. This is the first thing I think I'd like to fix on the car. Definitely vented rotors at the minimum, but I think also we will ditch the sliding calipers, since the pads aren't wearing very evenly. I could still lock the brakes up so they "worked" but it was impossible to tell when that was coming.

Overall it was an incredible weekend. Everything went so much better than we expected. The issues that we did have were pretty minor and outside of them and the brakes, the car ran flawlessly. The ambient temperature was around 95 F, and the coolant temperature never went above 200. We ramped up the intensity as we all got comfortable with the car, and the car rewarded us. We won the judge's choice award for driving a Fiat, being rookies, and not being assholes, so we came home with a trophy.

Thanks everyone here for all the advice and comments, it has been really helpful and I'm very grateful for it, since it helped to get us here.

Great job and congrats on a job well done!

 

[rozap]

I've been moving over the last month or so, so finally settled and have ample space to work on the X. Starting to think about brakes. Pulled the calipers. This is why you don't use street pads in a race car, even if the car isn't fast. The pads were new when we started.

But honestly the X calipers are kind of terrible. Given the way the whole caliper flexes, the pedal feel will never be particularly good. Despite having a new master cylinder, rebuilt calipers, and even before we ran out of brake pads, the feel was bad and the fade was scary. So the plan is to upgrade to bigger, vented rotors with modern calipers. Then of course proper pads. We may keep the master cylinder but I'm guessing it will also need an upgrade. We'll maybe need a proportioning valve, but we'll see when we get there. First step in the upgrade happened today.

There was another thread that said the 500 parts will bolt onto the X with just enlarging the mounting holes on the hub. That's not quite the case. But I'll update this thread with the result.

 

[rozap]

So I was wrong, things don't quite bolt up. But fortunately my neighbor had recently gifted me a lathe/mill combo. I had to take about 2mm off the mounting face of the carrier so the rotor would sit in the center of it. I also had to turn the rotors down so they are ~252mm from the original 257mm that came on the Fiat 500. I also had to cut a relief between the two mounting holes on the carrier to make it sit flat.

The rotors are cast iron, so they took forever to turn down to size. It's possible that steel ones would be easier to machine, but this is what I had from the junkyard and wanted to at least mock stuff up to see if we were going to run into something that made the whole plan fail.

But with the four modifications 1) larger mounting holes for the carrier 2) 2mm off the carrier face to change the offset 3) relief in the back of the carrier to allow it to sit flat 4) 5mm smaller diameter rotors, it all bolts up and spins freely.

The rear 500 calipers do not bolt up, and the piston size doesn't look like it's an upgrade at all. Also, the rotors are the same size as the existing ones on the X, so these are useless, but they were cheap because junkyard parts. We're planning to move the X front calipers to the rear, since that will bolt up, and will give us a slightly larger piston back there. It's unfortunate that the sliding pin calipers won't work from a brake feel perspective, but from a simplicity perspective this is the best path forward for the rear brakes.

 

[BrianM]

Great job and congrats on a job well done!

Wow! Getting a trophy at Lemons is hard took us years, Great Job! Were you in C class? Where did you place?