<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]'78 clutch saga continues<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000 at 10:35 AM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("bob danielak"); // --> </SCRIPT>bob danielak <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->well, i dropped the tranny out of the '78 yesterday.
it turns out that the clutch disc was broken.
one of the coil springs came out and was lodged
in between the pressure-plate and disc.
the one of the "lips" that holds the spring in place was broken off, which allowed the spring to come out...
as it turns out, this was exactly the same
problem with the clutch it replaced,
just last april.
so my questions are:
1. is this a manufacturer's design flaw
(my '87 disc was of different construction
-more robust in this area)?
2. is there something wrong with my set-up that may be causing premature failure of the disc?
i believe this was a valeo dics.
i know the pressure plate was a valeo.
my clutch pedal has always been close to the floor.
iirc, i tried to get it to disengage a little higher from the floor when i first installed the
new clutch, but couldn't get it much better
than it was with the old clutch...
maybe this has something to do with the disc failure???
any ideas?
bob.d.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]lezesig[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Patterns ?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 10:42 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Bob,
What kind of finger wear pattern do you have on the pressure plate ?
lezesig('79 w/ cluster exposed)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]bob danielak[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->normal wear, i think?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 12:23 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->i see the circular impression of the throw-out bearing.
it does seem a little deeper than
i'd expect for such low mileage. <5K miles
i also seem to recall some noise from the bearing
when it was cold the days before the clutch went.
what are you getting at?
just another semi-random thought:
i'm also wondering if the spring damage is incedental to the root (???) cause.
at one time on the ride home, thinking the disc was simply stuck, i tried to
"clunk" the clutch loose by starting her in
2nd gear, then 1st.
it certainly "clunked" and broke loose,
but started acting up again when i tried to get 2nd gear down the road...
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]lezesig[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->random thoughts<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 3:22 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Bob,
1- You'd think that the throw-out bearing should be self centering...but I was trying to think of some way that the pressure plate could exert uneven pressure on the disk and start some disc dancing. Where talking about the harmonic (balacing) springs in the disk itself and the fatiguing of the spring retaining lip ? I just looked at the ears on the throwing-out bearing fork of mine....that's a rough machined casting isn't it ? Definitely not symetrically ground. One flat next to the ear that the bearing retainer seats in is about a 1mm deeper than the other side ! That throw-out bearing sure has a bunch of freedom to spin where it may.
2- How about the Flyweel ? Spun it with a dial indicator for runout ?
.....just using a little logic to rule out the extra 'out the ordinary forces' that might be acting on the disk....then maybe like Steve pointed out, perhaps anything less than the V is an inherently weaker design and is prone to some whicky wacky. As said earlier...random thoughts to share...hope Steve can expand expand on it.
lezesig
('79 cluster exposed) <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Jeff"); // --> </SCRIPT>Jeff <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I had the same failure...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 12:46 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->...on an '87 I recently purchased. The car was running but the clutch wouldn't disengage. When I had the clutch replaced, my mechanic showed me the disc and one of the coil springs had broken loose. The PO had just replaced the clutch himself and failed to get it to disengage at all. - Jeff<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("bob danielak"); // --> </SCRIPT>bob danielak <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->so maybe i did something wrong when i put in the clutch?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 1:45 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->well there's a common element, here.
i put the clutch in recently, myself.
the only thing i can think of is damaging the
disc while installing the tranny.
maybe i hit the spring, or surrounding lip
with the input shaft while hoisting the tranny into position.
i'll be more careful next time,
but could there be another explanation?
bob.d.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "u";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("steve ambrose"); // --> </SCRIPT>steve ambrose <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Brand of Clutch?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 2:47 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi Bob, what brand of clutch did you install? I only use oem Valeo whenever possible for just this sort of reason. Very important to not let the trans "hang" on the input shaft during installation. Also make sure the two locating dowels between the motor and transaxle are in place. Other than that, I'd be thinking bad clutch. I doubt that your starting in 2nd had anything to do with it... they take much more torture in an autocross, and don't often fail...
Good luck,
Steve<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]bob danielak[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->the pressure plate is definitely a valeo<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 4:33 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->the pressure plate is definitely a valeo.
don't recall what the disc was.
i may have let the trans "hang"
a little the first time.
then the trans went.
then i put in the new trans more carefully.
(figured out how to balance it on a jack)
so it is entirely possible that i screwed it up during installation.
just trying to eliminate any other causes before getting a new disc and replacing.
should i replace the whole set,
including pressure plate and bearing?!?
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "j";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("JimL"); // --> </SCRIPT>JimL <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I had a similar failure<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 7 2000, 11:33 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->on my Saab 9000. It had 193,000 miles on it when it failed in this very same manner. I never had the tranny out or anything, so I really question the idea that it was an installing error since mine lasted 193,000 miles before failure. I don't have any better guesses, though, so who knows.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]bob danielak[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->the supplier of the clutch said it must be the flywheel!?!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 7 2000, 12:48 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->but what can you expect them to say?
their policy is that they won't honor any warantee unless the flywheel is resurfaced.
i don't have any qualms about paying for a new
disc, since it is well over 6 months since i bought it.
the customer service guy seemed pretty convincing that he knew of no "common complaints" like this on clutch discs.
i was ready to spring (pun intended) for a
new disc (at least), but they are out of stock til
december....
i'm going to look elsewhere, but i doubt i'll get
one before friday (my only day to work on it
this weekend).
so in the mean-time, maybe i should look into getting the flywheel re-surfaced.
and while i'm at it, maybe lightened
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000 at 10:35 AM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("bob danielak"); // --> </SCRIPT>bob danielak <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->well, i dropped the tranny out of the '78 yesterday.
it turns out that the clutch disc was broken.
one of the coil springs came out and was lodged
in between the pressure-plate and disc.
the one of the "lips" that holds the spring in place was broken off, which allowed the spring to come out...
as it turns out, this was exactly the same
problem with the clutch it replaced,
just last april.
so my questions are:
1. is this a manufacturer's design flaw
(my '87 disc was of different construction
-more robust in this area)?
2. is there something wrong with my set-up that may be causing premature failure of the disc?
i believe this was a valeo dics.
i know the pressure plate was a valeo.
my clutch pedal has always been close to the floor.
iirc, i tried to get it to disengage a little higher from the floor when i first installed the
new clutch, but couldn't get it much better
than it was with the old clutch...
maybe this has something to do with the disc failure???
any ideas?
bob.d.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Patterns ?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 10:42 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Bob,
What kind of finger wear pattern do you have on the pressure plate ?
lezesig('79 w/ cluster exposed)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->normal wear, i think?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 12:23 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->i see the circular impression of the throw-out bearing.
it does seem a little deeper than
i'd expect for such low mileage. <5K miles
i also seem to recall some noise from the bearing
when it was cold the days before the clutch went.
what are you getting at?
just another semi-random thought:
i'm also wondering if the spring damage is incedental to the root (???) cause.
at one time on the ride home, thinking the disc was simply stuck, i tried to
"clunk" the clutch loose by starting her in
2nd gear, then 1st.
it certainly "clunked" and broke loose,
but started acting up again when i tried to get 2nd gear down the road...
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->random thoughts<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 3:22 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Bob,
1- You'd think that the throw-out bearing should be self centering...but I was trying to think of some way that the pressure plate could exert uneven pressure on the disk and start some disc dancing. Where talking about the harmonic (balacing) springs in the disk itself and the fatiguing of the spring retaining lip ? I just looked at the ears on the throwing-out bearing fork of mine....that's a rough machined casting isn't it ? Definitely not symetrically ground. One flat next to the ear that the bearing retainer seats in is about a 1mm deeper than the other side ! That throw-out bearing sure has a bunch of freedom to spin where it may.
2- How about the Flyweel ? Spun it with a dial indicator for runout ?
.....just using a little logic to rule out the extra 'out the ordinary forces' that might be acting on the disk....then maybe like Steve pointed out, perhaps anything less than the V is an inherently weaker design and is prone to some whicky wacky. As said earlier...random thoughts to share...hope Steve can expand expand on it.
lezesig
('79 cluster exposed) <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I had the same failure...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 12:46 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->...on an '87 I recently purchased. The car was running but the clutch wouldn't disengage. When I had the clutch replaced, my mechanic showed me the disc and one of the coil springs had broken loose. The PO had just replaced the clutch himself and failed to get it to disengage at all. - Jeff<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->so maybe i did something wrong when i put in the clutch?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 1:45 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->well there's a common element, here.
i put the clutch in recently, myself.
the only thing i can think of is damaging the
disc while installing the tranny.
maybe i hit the spring, or surrounding lip
with the input shaft while hoisting the tranny into position.
i'll be more careful next time,
but could there be another explanation?
bob.d.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Brand of Clutch?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 2:47 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi Bob, what brand of clutch did you install? I only use oem Valeo whenever possible for just this sort of reason. Very important to not let the trans "hang" on the input shaft during installation. Also make sure the two locating dowels between the motor and transaxle are in place. Other than that, I'd be thinking bad clutch. I doubt that your starting in 2nd had anything to do with it... they take much more torture in an autocross, and don't often fail...
Good luck,
Steve<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->the pressure plate is definitely a valeo<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 6 2000, 4:33 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->the pressure plate is definitely a valeo.
don't recall what the disc was.
i may have let the trans "hang"
a little the first time.
then the trans went.
then i put in the new trans more carefully.
(figured out how to balance it on a jack)
so it is entirely possible that i screwed it up during installation.
just trying to eliminate any other causes before getting a new disc and replacing.
should i replace the whole set,
including pressure plate and bearing?!?
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I had a similar failure<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 7 2000, 11:33 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->on my Saab 9000. It had 193,000 miles on it when it failed in this very same manner. I never had the tranny out or anything, so I really question the idea that it was an installing error since mine lasted 193,000 miles before failure. I don't have any better guesses, though, so who knows.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->the supplier of the clutch said it must be the flywheel!?!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]November 7 2000, 12:48 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->but what can you expect them to say?
their policy is that they won't honor any warantee unless the flywheel is resurfaced.
i don't have any qualms about paying for a new
disc, since it is well over 6 months since i bought it.
the customer service guy seemed pretty convincing that he knew of no "common complaints" like this on clutch discs.
i was ready to spring (pun intended) for a
new disc (at least), but they are out of stock til
december....
i'm going to look elsewhere, but i doubt i'll get
one before friday (my only day to work on it
this weekend).
so in the mean-time, maybe i should look into getting the flywheel re-surfaced.
and while i'm at it, maybe lightened
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]