780 Bertone - Nvrmnd - Volvo 745 Pickup Project

lookforjoe

True Classic
Lots going on there. I will spend some time looking at it.

I suspect you will find the rear most part of the roof is narrower than the section right behind the drivers door so the pie cut is to deal with the mismatch of the B pillar width to the D pillar area’s width.

Most cars taper to the rear.

Yes, indeed - there is a taper - the cuts in this pic are to accommodate the taper. The pie cuts in that pic are just in the discarded outer skin, that's what's confusing - unless that is to allow a cut in the "outer" framing that is not documented.

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ng_randolph

Bjorn H
Yes, indeed - there is a taper - the cuts in this pic are to accommodate the taper. The pie cuts in that pic are just in the discarded outer skin, that's what's confusing - unless that is to allow a cut in the "outer" framing that is not documented.
If you are referring to 0m 30s into the video, he says he is removing the piece to get access so he can cut off the roof beam.
 

lookforjoe

True Classic
If you are referring to 0m 30s into the video, he says he is removing the piece to get access so he can cut off the roof beam.

Yes! Many thanks for the translation!

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looks like there is a diagonal cut out of the inner support corner here - didn't catch that

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lookforjoe

True Classic
Drilled out the spot welds for the roof skin off the spare roof section. Wanted to figure out whether it would make sense to separate the skin off my roof, so I can weld the inner structure without cutting sections out of the inner panels to access the outer. I really don't want to weld just the inner framing, which is how the others appear to be.

So, after this, I have to say it's not going to be worth it with the tools I have available. I'll go with a variation on the way the other examples are assembled.

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Couldn't get the roof skin off without distorting it where it was bonded over the hinge area

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Much going on in terms of panel overlays

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Roof skin is braised where it attaches to the D pillar framing

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3 layers come together at the drip rail

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lookforjoe

True Classic
The difficulty you face will be around finding the tooling to make some of those complex forms. This is something I face everyday. Many of the shapes you show are only possible with roll form tooling which you won’t find and can’t afford to have made.

I would respectfully suggest coming up with a simpler set of solutions to cap certain areas to create a consistent surface along the edge of the existing car and then a cap of heavier gauge material to mechanically attach to that for the “Toyota pickup” edge. If you look at the pickup‘s bed materials it is a formed part, which likely has a fold and hammer (hemmed) edge for strength out of more ductile steel to gain the strength needed.

You might get lucky and find an aluminum extrusion with some of the characteristics you seek for the ’edge’ in some of the open line extrusions out there which could be mechanically fastened to the steel parts.

I like the notion of the extendo tailgate to support longer loads. The drawer type suspensions will want to be as encapsulated as possible to reduce dirt getting into them and the lubrication being washed away while waiting to be used. How are you intending to do the hinge for the tailgate?

(sorry just now saw the pics of another person’s build)

I took my mockup section (last image in post above) to a sheet metal fabricator on Wednesday - he said no way they could make the channel with the rolled lip either inside or out. There is another shop across the river in Westchester I will contact, however it looks like I may have to resort to cutting square tube & adding a vertical leg, along the lines of the sketch I made in response to your quoted post. Likely the dogleg will have to go away & perhaps use "C" channel for the vertical portion, with the cut square tube as the cap. I'll have to cut some test sections to play with this. At least those materials can be had in lengths over 5', which is what I need the finished rails to be, along with 55" for the t/gate.

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lookforjoe

True Classic
Thoughts on the D pillar into B pillar rail integration

If I cut the inner rail as shown, I will have a cleaner connection to the B pillar (3rd pic)

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from "a" to "b" is approx 7", so that would be the inner overlapping panel. The rear roof crossmember needs to end up approx 2" behind sunroof opening to allow modded sunroof tub to still fit. "c" would be approximately where the back of the D pillar ends up.

PXL_20220106_203518706.jpg


So, something like this in terms of placement. Back of sunroof opening pretty much aligns with rear of B pillar, so this would give a couple inches between upper crossmember & opening

PXL_20220106_202838854a.jpg

reference position pic from TB build

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EDIT - crop from A-Traktor pic - B pillar inner skin reference - stepped stamped area - based on this, my cab would be at least 6" longer than the A-Traktor. That may be too much, I dunno yet

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I would cut approx this piece from inner rail, to allow the outer section of the rail to be mated, then this piece would be welded to reunite the inner rail

PXL_20220106_203629144a.jpg


depth from intended inner cut to inside of t/gate glass- approx 18.5"

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all this would place the back of the cab approx 14" from back of sunroof opening. The TB member who did this is going to check the depth of his off the sunroof opening. The A-Traktor versions illustrated set the D pillar crossmember closer to the B pillar, as there is no sunroof to interfere.

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kmead

Glutton for punishment
Thoughts on the D pillar into B pillar rail integration

If I cut the inner rail as shown, I will have a cleaner connection to the B pillar (3rd pic)

View attachment 56795

View attachment 56796



from "a" to "b" is approx 7", so that would be the inner overlapping panel. The rear roof crossmember needs to end up approx 2" behind sunroof opening to allow modded sunroof tub to still fit. "c" would be approximately where the back of the D pillar ends up.

View attachment 56798

So, something like this in terms of placement. Back of sunroof opening pretty much aligns with rear of B pillar, so this would give a couple inches between upper crossmember & opening

View attachment 56799

EDIT - crop from A-Traktor pic - B pillar inner skin reference - stepped stamped area - based on this, my cab would be at least 6" longer than the A-Traktor. That may be too much, I dunno yet

View attachment 56802
I would cut approx this piece from inner rail, to allow the outer section of the rail to be mated, then this piece would be welded to reunite the inner rail

View attachment 56800

depth from intended inner cut to inside of t/gate glass- approx 18.5"

View attachment 56797


all this would place the back of the cab approx 14" from back of sunroof opening. The TB member who did this is going to check the depth of his off the sunroof opening. The A-Traktor versions illustrated set the D pillar crossmember closer to the B pillar, as there is no sunroof to interfere.

View attachment 56801
So will your moon roof just be a pop up? Or did Volvo go to the pop over type roofs back then?

Yeah metal forming requires specific tools to make certain bend types. Most shops only have a variety of angles and only for certain thicknesses. Our model ship has a variety of tools but still has to make certain parts in multiple pieces and then weld them together to make what is desired to represent parts for product development.

A car is made using matched forming dies which pull the material around with a big sheet to draw from, it then goes to a trimming die to cut out what is not needed, many times as part of a progressive die which does different forming processes at each station in the die. Suffice to say the lovely parts we see on cars with all those features in the formed steel are why it costs a huge amount of money to tool one vehicle.

We do lots of break forming, some progressive dies (though not as many as we used to) and roll forms but no matched dies with deep forming.

Building something up out of simpler forms will likely be what you will have to suffer through making.
 

lookforjoe

True Classic
So will your moon roof just be a pop up? Or did Volvo go to the pop over type roofs back then?

Yeah metal forming requires specific tools to make certain bend types. Most shops only have a variety of angles and only for certain thicknesses. Our model ship has a variety of tools but still has to make certain parts in multiple pieces and then weld them together to make what is desired to represent parts for product development.

A car is made using matched forming dies which pull the material around with a big sheet to draw from, it then goes to a trimming die to cut out what is not needed, many times as part of a progressive die which does different forming processes at each station in the die. Suffice to say the lovely parts we see on cars with all those features in the formed steel are why it costs a huge amount of money to tool one vehicle.

We do lots of break forming, some progressive dies (though not as many as we used to) and roll forms but no matched dies with deep forming.

Building something up out of simpler forms will likely be what you will have to suffer through making.

Sunroofs are all sliding variety, with pop-up. I will be using the glass panel from a later model, and will only have the pop-up vent feature.

This is the example of the sunroof cassette with the rear chopped off, and folded up to make a rear dam - that's what needs the couple inches clearance for the D crossmember

cutbackofsunroofassy.jpg


I called a number of metal works today, and emailed a couple the following pic. Not one would either work with this light a gauge, and/or form a "J" channel that small.

PXL_20220107_144155842.jpg


Looks like what I'm down to is cutting a square tube down, similar to my earlier sketch. So, something along these lines, using 1.25"x.0625" (1/16") I tube.

PXL_20220107_233445638.jpg
 

kmead

Glutton for punishment
Sunroofs are all sliding variety, with pop-up. I will be using the glass panel from a later model, and will only have the pop-up vent feature.

This is the example of the sunroof cassette with the rear chopped off, and folded up to make a rear dam - that's what needs the couple inches clearance for the D crossmember

View attachment 56826

I called a number of metal works today, and emailed a couple the following pic. Not one would either work with this light a gauge, and/or form a "J" channel that small.

View attachment 56828

Looks like what I'm down to is cutting a square tube down, similar to my earlier sketch. So, something along these lines, using 1.25"x.0625" (1/16") I tube.

View attachment 56827
I thought that was the case for sunroof. The other choice is to weld it up but a sunroof is nice to have. Particularly the glass type.

I am spoiled at work apparently…

Sorry.
 
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lookforjoe

True Classic
"Stiggypop" on TB said 8.5" from sunroof to D pillar center ridge

hTMZzzd.jpg


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Crossmember is 7" deep

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the gate itself is approx 4.5",

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so about 13" all told

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What I'd like to do is use the C pillar inverted to make it possible to use the C, D & 1/4 glass top trim

it is about 4" deep, compared to 2" or so for using the stock rear door upright as the basis

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flipped, obviously would involve some work to integrate into B pillar

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Playing with photoshop, lighting is inverted on C pillar which makes it look off. This would reduce the glass depth at the top to about 6"

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stock rear 1/4

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cab using rear door forward upright & D pillar trim overlap

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bought 6' 16ga 1.25" square stock & a cutting blade I can use with a skilsaw to section it into the "J" channel

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lookforjoe

True Classic
Bloody cold now. Anyway, I spent an hour or so in the garage working on the rail.

Cut the 1.25" square tube to make the J. Cut a 6" section, to experiment with layout.

Overlap on the inside of the pinch weld, with 3/4" 1/8th angle set inside to reinforce it. May need to use a thinner angle bar - 3/16" is the max thickness the spot welder can handle. The welds on that don't feel like they are penetrating.

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Used the cut off section as a reinforcement, tying to the angle of the inner fender

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Sits about 1.75" total height off the fender ridge. I need to measure the molding height.

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kmead

Glutton for punishment
Pretty tall. I would put the L angle along the doubled existing structure to make three layers and then weld your U section to the three layers.

You could plug weld into the back of the thick section of your L to get a strong connection of existing structure to the heavier gauge L and stitech along the back. Then weld the U section to the top of it and to the doubled existing structure along the back side.

Do you actually need the 30mm gap? If so order a rectangular tube to cut down to still follow the above.
 

lookforjoe

True Classic
Pretty tall. I would put the L angle along the doubled existing structure to make three layers and then weld your U section to the three layers.

You could plug weld into the back of the thick section of your L to get a strong connection of existing structure to the heavier gauge L and stitech along the back. Then weld the U section to the top of it and to the doubled existing structure along the back side.

Do you actually need the 30mm gap? If so order a rectangular tube to cut down to still follow the above.

Not really following. The 1/8" angle is too thick to spot weld to the existing pinch weld. I can stitch weld the 1/8" angle to the top of the pinch weld, under the U. I think if I just use 16ga inside it will be easier.

The rail needs to be at least the height I have - the molding that runs on the doors & down on the quarter panel is at least 1/2" tall - probably closer to 3/4"

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kmead

Glutton for punishment
To plug weld you drill holes along the length of the thinner materials and weld a puddle to fill the hole into the thicker material on the other side rather and then stitching the doubled material to the L above alternating as you go. It will give you a stiffer interaction and force transfer compared to just stitching the butted parts. If you need the 30mm then a taller L would be needed to account for the overlap.

As you are welding multiple thicknesses you are sort of stuck with plug and stitching as spot welding doesn’t like some of those conditions due to poor clamping and a differential in weld penetration in the different material thicknesses


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lookforjoe

True Classic
To plug weld you drill holes along the length of the thinner materials and weld a puddle to fill the hole into the thicker material on the other side rather and then stitching the doubled material to the L above alternating as you go. It will give you a stiffer interaction and force transfer compared to just stitching the butted parts. If you need the 30mm then a taller L would be needed to account for the overlap.

As you are welding multiple thicknesses you are sort of stuck with plug and stitching as spot welding doesn’t like some of those conditions due to poor clamping and a differential in weld penetration in the different material thicknesses


View attachment 56952View attachment 56953

Thanks Karl - sorry I wasn't really clear. I do understand plug welds - I will have to do the roof panel that way - I just want to avoid that sort of labor on the rail. With the 16ga sections (vs. 1/8") , I can layer the panels & spot weld along and /or overlapping the pinch weld. The various test welds on 4 16 ga layers seem to have good penetration. It is unwieldy carrying the welder, but can be done. I can securely clamp the rail & weld in short sections at a time to accomplish that. I'd like to avoid using the MIG/TIG for the rail caps, except where they will tie into the C & D sections at each end.
 
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lookforjoe

True Classic
Temps down around 13º today. I stayed in the garage for about an hour, that was all I could take, my space heater just takes the edge off.

Played with the rail again. I chiseled off the lip I welded to the inner fender - welds broke easily where there were 4 layers (over 3/16" total thickness). The 2 layer welds were fine. The 1/8" angle inset chiseled free without too much effort.

PXL_20220111_205246596.jpg


Flexing just the single layer "U", the welds along the pinch don't give at all - the inner & outer fender deflects from leverage at the rail. I'm going to use a 1" x 1/16" square tube cut to fit inside as shown below. I think what I'm going to do to reduce potential fender flex along the top is add a bridge from the outer skin to the inner - along these lines

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I have these plates cut from the X1/9 engine cover, and the trays from under the stock X1/9 seats to use for reinforcements

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lookforjoe

True Classic
Chipping away at the smaller things.

Worked on the inserts to be welded into the inner fender to reinforce the structure. I'm going to leave it with the utilitarian look, not skinned to conceal all this

PXL_20220112_154634179.jpg


Made a template, and cut the left partial & right full inserts, along with the longer section (24") to reinforce the upper inner, and the little discs for the forward openings

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these large panels will be (plug) welded last

PXL_20220112_213632853.jpg


this side will need a separate removable cover for the filler neck service access

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The pinch weld in the wheel arch will need a cap, to create a conduit for the wiring, etc.,

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24" inserts for upper inner fender. These get welded first, while I can get in with the spot welder

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The diagonal inner/outer brace will go in after that

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lookforjoe

True Classic
Not feeling great today - had my Shingle vax last evening, arm feels kinda like a lead ballon & general fatigue. SO, all I got done after work was stripping the new glass sunroof cassette & cut down the channels.

glass removed, channels cut down. May need to make them even shorter, another inch or so. I cut them as is to retain the (now) rear roof mount.

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removed the rear drains from the cut sections, in case I can make use of them once the roof & D pillar structure are in place

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may need to move the rear mount forward, in which case I will adapt what were the rear cassette mounts

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glass, 'tub' that the screen & roof were encased by when roof is open. I may need to cut off the rear of the tub & make it work as a rear wall for the cassette, if I can't make the rear drains work.

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sunroof gates have worn track slide channels, but that's not really going to matter when only using the roof as a rear pop up

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lookforjoe

True Classic
dismantled more of the sunroof - removed the air deflector, cut another 1.5" off the back of the tracks

figuring out the differences in the tub mounting

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new tub mounts at approx 10" & 21.5" points along tub

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...which should align with mid & rear here - front point is different

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found a post that talks about the mounting

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sunroof motor support - no brace on tub

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old version has brace I'll have to cut off & use. Also manual crank gear won't fit in newer tub. Captive nut in lower left is where the motor ear is connected with a mini mount.

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Have to cut the sheet aluminum tub to make the rear tie plate

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