850 Engine swap?

GarageTimeTV

Garage Time TV
I have seen people switch Honda VTEC into X1/9s and even V8's into 124 Spiders. Has anyone seen any swaps with the 850 Spider? I have looked around and haven't gotten much back since our cars aren't too common. Of course there are the A112 swaps, but I wasn't sure if anyone used something stronger.

Thanks!
 
I have always thought a B series Honda engine would be worth looking at. It runs CCW so could be applied to the Fiat transaxle. Something like the 1200/1300 single cam would likely keep the transaxle from grenading as they don‘t make tons of torque but are good with plenty of revs.

Moving to a VW transaxle could allow you to use a Passat type transaxle with a twin cam B series engine but you may find it is too tall, the single cams are lower. A Suzuki 1300cc G13B in this application would be really nice as it is all alloy, bulletproof and loves to rev. Finding one is the issue.

A Fiat twin cam will fit in there (PBS and Abarth) as will a 124 pushrod engine (again PBS and Abarth). Both need reverse rotation cams which are hard to come by.

There is however a version of the 850 series engine which can be built to provide @100 hp, the 1050 Abarth bottom end and the 8 port head with twin carbs or FI would be an “easy” fit and very little reengineering. This would be my preference frankly.

Going to something more powerful would require a huge amount of re-engineering of the driveline in addition to brakes etc etc etc. Also can you really imagine a 200 hp engine in a 1500lb car, with it all hanging off the rear of the car? Not me.
 
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Good points, I guess that it why I haven't seen much! It has been running in my head to see what others have done. I'll stick to the 'ol 903cc and enjoy the ride. Sometimes, staying stock and enjoying it is really what its all about.

Thank you for your insight!
 
I've enjoyed your videos up until you put in the electric motor and then the whole project turned lame. I recall you had a decent 817 motor. I would consider replacing it with a 903. I purchased a car with an 817 bored and stroked to 1040cc. Ran like stink util it blew up. You could bore out the 817, but I would spend the money on boring out a 903, as others have mentioned. Thats probably the best $ per HP. Other options are great but parts are scarce and you'll be competing with serious vintage racers for those same parts. I'm sure you could pick up a good 903 cheap. I recall the car looks pretty decent and would be worth saving.
 
I've enjoyed your videos up until you put in the electric motor and then the whole project turned lame. I recall you had a decent 817 motor. I would consider replacing it with a 903. I purchased a car with an 817 bored and stroked to 1040cc. Ran like stink util it blew up. You could bore out the 817, but I would spend the money on boring out a 903, as others have mentioned. Thats probably the best $ per HP. Other options are great but parts are scarce and you'll be competing with serious vintage racers for those same parts. I'm sure you could pick up a good 903 cheap. I recall the car looks pretty decent and would be worth saving.
I'm sorry to hear you think it got lame! That wasn't my intention at all! I guess good news, yet to be told on the channel, will be that I will be returning to the original gas set up and will be getting a 903cc. One day I would like to do an EV conversion, but pieces are just too expensive still. In a few years when electric cars flood the market, pieces will probably become cheaper. So, I will be continuing the series from a teardown of the 903, full gasket set, then start reinstallation. Hopefully I can get you back!
 
I'm sorry to hear you think it got lame! That wasn't my intention at all! I guess good news, yet to be told on the channel, will be that I will be returning to the original gas set up and will be getting a 903cc. One day I would like to do an EV conversion, but pieces are just too expensive still. In a few years when electric cars flood the market, pieces will probably become cheaper. So, I will be continuing the series from a teardown of the 903, full gasket set, then start reinstallation. Hopefully I can get you back!
Hot tip, pick up a used motorcycle jack on craigslist. great for removing/installing engine/transmission as a unit. (credit Flaviaman
20200921_143521.jpg
 
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Ramona300 in Oz has an 850 coupe that he races and has a 903 block, EFI, supercharger and I *think* a Suzuki head.

A 124 twincam can be installed but I believe reversing rotation is a challenge. PBS and/or Gregg Schmidt had info. on doing this. An easier way would be to use a 124 OHV engine 1438 cc. Rotation is done with a cam gear set. The necessary bellhousing adapter, engine cradle, reverse gears, etc. can be had from Berni Motori. A 1438 OHV can be stroked to 1608 fairly easily. Heavier motor means you probably need to upgrade the suspension. With a lower reving motor the stock R&P really should be replaced with lower ratio like 3.9 otherwise you won't get the top speed you want.

I have a Euro 131 1585cc engine that is physically the same on the outside of a 124 OHV and can be substituted instead. I have the required cam & dist. to reverse the rotation. I'd like to sell this and it's available for cheap. I also have a new head, couple of piston sets, water pump and IIRC and few other parts for it.

An A112 70 HP engine would be an easy drop in and just needs the rotation changed. Lots can be done to it to get up to +/- 90 HP and more if you go for more exotic stuff like a PBS head, EFI, etc.

More HP means you'll need better cooling and likely going to a front rad. More work and things to figure out.

Abarth-online.de and Berni Motori have lots of parts on the their websites and will empty a wallet quickly.

I have a brand new 1438 cc OHV 124 motor that I bought locally years ago for cheap out of the local classifieds. It's going into my 1300/124 and will be stroked to 1608 cc and have a hot street cam, ported head & dual 40 DCOEs. No idea what HP it will make but will a lot more than the original 1280 cc 88 HP Abarth motor. I'm keeping the Abarth engine stuff stored away.

There used to be an Abarth Berlina Corsa that someone ran at the local autocrosses. He had a 2 liter 124 twin cam race motor in it. It was crazy fast and almost did wheelies when he punched the throttle at the start line. Easier to install a 124 motor in a 600 because the rotation doesn't need reversing.
 
I'm sorry to hear you think it got lame! That wasn't my intention at all! I guess good news, yet to be told on the channel, will be that I will be returning to the original gas set up and will be getting a 903cc. One day I would like to do an EV conversion, but pieces are just too expensive still. In a few years when electric cars flood the market, pieces will probably become cheaper. So, I will be continuing the series from a teardown of the 903, full gasket set, then start reinstallation. Hopefully I can get you back!
Good point. I thought about building an EV 850 with my son since he’s into EVs and I had at the time 4 850 rollers.
But the price point to make something that was actually usable was too high.
 
Ramona300 in Oz has an 850 coupe that he races and has a 903 block, EFI, supercharger and I *think* a Suzuki head.
Presently have the modified 903cc head with the pistons machined down to lower the compression.

The Suzuki head big bore engine, roughly 940ccs, is still under construction. Other projects have impeded progress at the moment. The new Suzuki pistons arrived during the week. Made in Taiwan they are superb quality and a fraction the weight of the Fiat units.
 
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A Fiat twin cam will fit in there (PBS and Abarth) as will a 124 pushrod engine (again PBS and Abarth). Both need reverse rotation cams which are hard to come by.



Going to something more powerful would require a huge amount of re-engineering of the driveline in addition to brakes etc etc etc. Also can you really imagine a 200 hp engine in a 1500lb car, with it all hanging off the rear of the car? Not me.
It's not required that the cams be replaced on the 124 DOHC motor to put it in an 850 to run CCW. In the PBS conversion you replace the distributor drive gear (not shaft) with one from a Ford 6 cylinder motor. It's a slide on fit and will now maintain the correct oil pump rotation running CCW. A special bellhousing allows the use of a VW starter. That's the hqard to find part. Memory is starting to fail but at most the cams are reset as the slopes are symetrical. On my application the distributor was on the cam tower and the firing order had to be adjusted with changing the spark plug lead locations. The motor was supported with a mid location cradle. A very simple and straight forward swap. It added about 80 pounds to the stock total weight . Moving the radiator to the front helped offset the "tail happy" aspect. I used the following suspension mods: 1300/124 rear coils, 1300/124 front reverse eye leaf, rear sway bar moved to front, thicker bar (from Addco in Florida) at the rear, 6" rims with P-7 Pirelli tires in 175/50? With dual DCOE's it maybe had 120 horsepower. It felt MORE STABLE than a stock 850 Spider. It required trimming off the rear motor perch pad from the 850 rear panel. Installed it looked like a factory installation.
 
thicker bar (from Addco in Florida) at the rear,
How did you install the Addco bar? I got mine off ebay a long time ago and don't know if it came with the correct end links and bushings. The ends of the (3/4") bar are quite different and won't swap directly over. The bushing part on the end of the bar is 5/8" ID. Best thought so far is to use a 5/8" spherical rod end but they're huge and overkill. That also means that the rod end won't line up with the attachment point on the trailing arm. The polyurethane bushings and brackets look like cr@p and won't fit onto the stock stud locations under the car. Have been looking at some generic Prothane bushings but don't know yet if they'll fit.
 

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I had a '70 850 H/P race car that I
used as an autocrosser. I replaced the 903 with a 1300 128 motor using a PBS 600/128 kit. It ran fairly well with a lightly modded engine. The drawback to this was that the gas tank had to be moved to get the 600 trans with it's top mounted starter in where the 850 trans came out. Mounts had to be made, shift linkage changed, but nothing really involved. At the time my biggest problem was starting it because the 600 starter just didn't want to crank the 128.
Later on when the kit was put in my 600 I used one of Paul V's adapters to use a gear drive Subaru starter and that solved the problem.
 
For the one asking for my channel:

@GarageTimeTV on Youtube.

 
How did you install the Addco bar? I got mine off ebay a long time ago and don't know if it came with the correct end links and bushings. The ends of the (3/4") bar are quite different and won't swap directly over. The bushing part on the end of the bar is 5/8" ID. Best thought so far is to use a 5/8" spherical rod end but they're huge and overkill. That also means that the rod end won't line up with the attachment point on the trailing arm. The polyurethane bushings and brackets look like cr@p and won't fit onto the stock stud locations under the car. Have been looking at some generic Prothane bushings but don't know yet if they'll fit.
I did the conversion in the late 1980's and can't remember some of the exact details. As to the Addco rear sway bar I seem to remember it being a direct replacement with only rubber bushings on the body to change. Last item changed was to go with Carrera shocks all around. I got them from Greg Schmidt and they were on John Edwards 850 Autocross car. I contacted Addco last year but they never replied to my Fiat 850 rear bar request....Of all the various motors I've had in an 850 Spider the nicest was an Autobianchi A112 1050 with a PBS 8-port head running dual 40mm DCOE's.
 
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