850 Sedan / X1/9 Engine Swap

[kmead]

Wow. Very cool. Quite an amazing conversion.

 

[gene cooley]

That is impressive power. Do you run any competition events or is it strictly street driven?
Is the waste gate/dump valve the only thing that controls the boost or do you also use the Micro Squirt to control boost (and detonation)?
I have watched several autocross cars with turbos and as they add more boost it seems like the computer and mechanical bits don't seem to be able to keep up with the frequent on/off throttle and resulting boost spikes.
Any thoughts on how to work around this?
As I said before, that is a strong motor.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

Don’t remember who made the rods but will dig through my paperwork and get back to you tomorrow. One of my friends runs the same rods in his X19 race car. Another thing is we run a Audi four coil coil which is an inexpensive spark management. We take two degrees of lead out for every pound of bouts.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

I’ll check my paperwork and see if I still have that record.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

Will check my paperwork this morning and get back to you.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

We run the waste gate on the turbo and it is wide open at 21 lbs. The engine management system controls fuel and timing. You have to run a dump valve to open when you go from boost to idle. I don’t do much with the engine management. That’s my friends job. We do run 65 pounds of rail pressure and tune to that. The car in insane to drive because it is only 1500 pound.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

As you can tell that I’m on two different postings.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

Jeff ask about mounting the transaxle. I found a bunch of old pictures. Don’t know why it’s so hard to photograph inside that motor compartment. Let me know if you need better pictures. Dr. Jeff. Not finding the rod invoice. here’s a picture.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

Jeff. I found some old pictures and this may help. Can’t find the invoice for the rods but still looking.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

I’ll try on more time. I found some very old pictures.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Jeff. I found some old pictures and this may help. Can’t find the invoice for the rods but still looking.

Thanks Wayne. The pictures are working fine. If you happen to come across the name and/or model number for the rods I'd appreciate it, but I understand if you don't.

By the way, that's a really nice property. Scottsdale or another of the outlying communities?

I'm also using the VW ignition coil you described. Very easy to set up with the MicroSquirt and very affordable way to get a great crank triggered spark. For my crank trigger I'm using the Ford wheel and pick up sensor, but not any of the rest of EDIS. Yours looks to be more custom built.

Looking at your engine picture. I have the same oil cooler, fuel pressure regulator, and other components. Seems our builds are similar in many ways. For now I'm using a factory 'Uno Turbo' cast-iron exhaust manifold. But I've looked at the same tubular one you have. If I ever decide to build it for higher performance (i.e. more boost from a bigger turbo), then I'll be changing pistons, rods, valves, and the manifold to ones more like yours. Initially I want to see how the stock (factory) components do with a mild boost. It is effectively the same as the production Uno Turbo, but on the X's engine. I'm hoping for around 125-150 HP and a lot of torque. One nice thing with my small turbo is virtually no lag - it spools immediately. Nice for a regular street car (I'm not building a track car).

One thing I can't make out from the pic is your intercooler. Are you running a air-to-water charge cooler, or a remote mounted air-to-air intercooler?

 

[Dr.Jeff]

That is impressive power. Do you run any competition events or is it strictly street driven?
Is the waste gate/dump valve the only thing that controls the boost or do you also use the Micro Squirt to control boost (and detonation)?
I have watched several autocross cars with turbos and as they add more boost it seems like the computer and mechanical bits don't seem to be able to keep up with the frequent on/off throttle and resulting boost spikes.
Any thoughts on how to work around this?
As I said before, that is a strong motor.

I've read about controlling boost levels and over-run pressure spikes. It seems there is a lot of science to selecting the right size/type of wastegate and blow off valve, as well as how they are managed. Plus how and where they are incorporated into the whole system.

Typically when guys keep increasing the boost level they do not change the other components needed to properly control it. And there are also many aspects of the engine itself that need to be compatible with the higher boost - no matter how it is controlled. Thermal management is yet another area that needs to be addressed; as boost goes up the internal temps soar. So a lot of what you are seeing may be a function of poorly designed systems. It's tempting to keep upping the boost level for more power.

Microsquirt will control a boost solenoid ("MAC valve") if you have a wastegate setup for it. Recently I'm seeing BOV's that can also be controlled electronically like that, but they are fairly new technology and very expensive. The turbo technology keeps advancing, and as the major automobile manufacturers continue to go more toward turbo engines it will improve even more.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

I run an air to air on the package tray and the factory one that is built in the intake manifold. I blew the end out of a Porsche turbo intercooler. Then I went to an aluminum welded unit. Will send a picture.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I run an air to air on the package tray and the factory one that is built in the intake manifold. I blew the end out of a Porsche turbo intercooler. Then I went to an aluminum welded unit. Will send a picture.

Now I see the intercooler routing. Because mine is in the mid-engine X, I located the intercooler just above the transmission - laying flat. It is a welded aluminum one like yours but different shape to accommodate the space. I don't have any pics of mine but it is somewhat similar to this one (although mine is about 50% larger and all aluminum):

I imagine that Porsche intercooler was damaged or faulty somehow. Because they run extremely high boost levels with them on 911's. Plus I believe they have a "burst panel" built in that should give first.

 

[MikeHynes]

Very nice build Wayne, sounds like a lot of fun! I've also got a couple of questions if you don't mind...
I noticed that you are using the AC style water pump. Any reason why? Does the tube that extends (back) from the water pump to the thermostat fit with that header installed? Also, what have you done to keep the head gasket in place?

 

[NM850]

The rods look like a Maxspeeding product. We use them in Alfa Romeos . A British race team tested them by exceeding limits, Rockwell hardness and magnaflux and determined the quality was as good as rods costing three times as much. Even if these are not Maxspeeding they are a good option for Fiat owners.

 

[Wayne Daudet]

I’m surprised how much interest there in in turbo X19 and how little there is in this country. The people in Ohio would rather put a Honda motor in an X19 than put a turbo on a Fiat. I’ve talked to him and they have helped me with parts and I’m not bad mouthing them in any way. I talked to Tim at X Act turbo and he advised me not to squirt my motor because it is making the numbers that the Honda’s make. How the head gasket stays in place. We started with a very good 14 bolt block. They run smaller studs but I think that you have to spend the money for high quality studs. The quality of the gaskets is in my mind is money well spent. I have to say that the parts vendor in Ohio was a big help. Think it’s Matt. I run two inter coolers and that helps. I also have two guys who help with my tune. That helps. The rods. I’m sure that the rods are very high quality and Dale runs them in his X19 race car. We gram scale the rods and pins and balance them and they are all four perfect. I spent days getting that cylinder head finished. This car is a labor of love. It was my daily driver for over 10 years. Okay back to the water pump. We don’t run a thermostat. That’s uses a block off with I think it’s a one inch whole to restrict the flow. The water pump in the photo has been changed and the housing changed to plumb coolant to the turbo. We pick return coolant from the radiator and feed the turbo and return on the feed side of the water pump. There is lots of room to run the coolant tube past the header. I need to wrap the headers and the coolant tubes. Hope Dale doesn’t mind me posting a photograph of his car.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I’m surprised how much interest there in in turbo X19 and how little there is in this country.

Exactly my sentiment, and the reason for my turbo X project. When I started on the idea I looked for any info I could find on Fiat SOHC engines with a turbo. There is extremely little, however I did find a few people that had added a turbo to their X. Mostly they were done many years ago when the technology isn't anywhere where it is now. So the choice of turbo, the accessories that go with it, the management systems, the tune, and everything else wasn't ideal...but it still worked (at least for awhile). They made great power, and that was the problem - too tempting to go higher boost, and with that came the failures. But with all of the advancements available now, and all of the knowledge that has been gained about making turbo engines durable and reliable, I'm hoping it will have better long term results now. There's a lot more boost specific equipment and components to be had these days, as well as a lot more knowledge how to use it correctly. My project has been very slow going due to personal reasons, but it is coming along and I am very happy with how well everything has gone so far. One of my primary goals with this is to see how practical it is to (low level) boost a stock engine, and how affordably it can be done while still remaining reliable. From there it can easily be developed as far as desired. Especially since all of the vital components will already be in place.

I talked to Tim at X Act turbo and he advised me not to squirt my motor because it is making the numbers that the Honda’s make.

By "squirt" do you mean nitrous oxide?

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Does the tube that extends (back) from the water pump to the thermostat fit with that header installed?

These tube type turbo headers were designed specifically for the SOHC Fiat engine, with the cooling tube behind it, so there is clearance. Some have found issues with them cracking due to the weight and heat from the turbo. However the only alternative is the factory cast iron manifolds as was used on the Uno and Punto turbo editions. And those are becoming difficult to find and therefore getting more expensive - not to mention any used turbo manifold is prone to being warped or cracked. Plus a tube style should offer better flow. The nice thing is these tube headers are rather affordable (relatively speaking).

 

[Wayne Daudet]

Yes. The header are stainless and can be wrapped to hold the heat in the pipes. More heat makes more power. I looked for a new factory manifold but couldn’t find one. Finding a good used one is difficult. By squirt I mean alcohol. I set it up in place of the cold start valve. I now use that to manually change the idle speed.