86 1500, Mild Performance Build

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Hey All,

I finally finally acquired an X. A couple of weeks ago Tavalin sold me his very clean 86. I hit the road at 1:00 am Sunday morning, drove straight from my home near Athens Ga. to the Tampa area, spent a few hours talking and loading it (and a ton of parts and tools!) on the UHaul car carrier, headed home and arrived at 8:00 pm that evening.

Rest stop in Florida to check chains and straps. Perhaps more info than required but I peed once during the 19 hour trip at the UHaul place. 😳 No dehydration, learned from lots of long haul trips.
X 1-9 at Florida reststop.jpg


Unloaded by myself with no starter! I found three angles of pavement to help with the physics part. It could then be jump started in 2nd gear. Started immediately. Gear reduction starter to install very soon!
X Dec.,'20 unloading pic 2.jpg


Outside my new little 10x20 shop. I manage and co-own the storage biz with my awesome brother. He's in New Jersey but is very actively involved, thankfully.
X ooutside shop 12, 2020.jpg


It's small but better than nothing. The 14"ceiling is a major plus. Currently occupied by Toad the Boxster, waiting for it's new coilovers. That's an F2000 training chassis up on the left.
Shop unit 208 Sept 14 20.jpg


I'll add more tomorrow. It's great to be back with the best car specific forum there is - seriously, half the reason I bought an X.
 
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What's your definition of "mild"?

Stock is 75hp and 81lb/ft from memory for the USA, what's your aim?

Or are you meaning supension / brake related upgrades and a more "overall" performance build?

19 hours without a pee break... you're under 50 for sure :rolleyes:, or you don't drink coffee.

SteveC
 
fiatfactory said:
What's your definition of "mild"?

Stock is 75hp and 81lb/ft from memory for the USA, what's your aim?

Or are you meaning supension / brake related upgrades and a more "overall" performance build?

19 hours without a pee break... you're under 50 for sure :rolleyes:, or you don't drink coffee.

SteveC
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All around improvements; weight reduction, torque and horsepower increase, suspension and brakes.
2210 lbs.÷ 64whp= approx. 35 lbs/per 1 whp.
My last few projects were aimed at a 25% whp/weight increase, about 12 to 13 lbs./per whp but that won't work with an X with a normally-aspirated 1500. So, say pulling a minimum of 250 lbs off and adding about 20 horsepower would give a ratio of 23/1. Pretty abysmal by modern standards but the X would be fun starting at around that ratio. Even the little Honda k20a3 lump would make a perfect road car with 150 or 160 horsepower but I'd like to build this car with the normally aspirated 1500. I understand 100 horsepower or more is attainable with the 1500 but I'm not sure I want to go into the block, at least not yet. Also, the fuel injection system on this one has been recently redone so I'm not sure about carburetors either. Still feeling my way around at this early stage. Although I do feel that GregS' X is really admirable...
 
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Hasbro said:
All around improvements; weight reduction, torque and horsepower increase, suspension and brakes.
2210 lbs.÷ 64whp= approx. 35 lbs/per 1 whp.
My last few projects were aimed at a 25% whp/weight increase, about 12 to 13 lbs./per whp but that won't work with an X with a normally-aspirated 1500. So, say pulling a minimum of 250 lbs off and adding about 20 horsepower would give a ratio of 23/1. Pretty abysmal by modern standards but the X would be fun starting at around that ratio. Even the little Honda k20a3 lump would make a perfect road car with 150 or 160 horsepower but I'd like to build this car with the 1500 normally aspirated. For now. I understand 100 horsepower or more is attainable with the 1500 but I'm not sure I want to go into the block, at least not yet. Also, the fuel injection system on this one has been recently redone so I'm not sure about carburetors either. Still feeling my way around at this early stage. Although I do feel that GregS' X is a terrific little car...
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That’s a nice looking X. Really like the wheels. I also recently acquired my first one, just about a month ago. I’ll be looking to do a mild engine build as well so it will be interesting to see how you approach this. A number of people have encouraged me to go K swap route but I’m interested in building the stock motor. I’ve always wanted a car with itb’s so maybe.... Good luck with the project.
 
I've been following your threads, Ryan.
The Cromodora cd31s were a real bonus. Thinking of powder coating them gold.
 
109rwhp / 120lb/ft torque 1600cc sohc in your given standard weight of 2210lbs is 20.3lb/hp.

2210 lbs / 1004 kg sounds a little heavy to me, unless you have air conditioning and power windows too, I always figure a five speed series 2 at 945kg (2080 lbs) which puts 109rwhp at 19.1lbs/hp

100 at the wheels is quite easy with a 1500, but you will struggle getting enough airflow to get there thru the stock EFI manifolding without pushing the air thru it.

SteveC
 
Great story about fetching the car. I have some fond memories making marathon round trips to snag a rare car. Funny, I'd rather spend as much or more retrieving the car myself rather than have it shipped. Of course that was back when I did not have to stop for pee breaks every mile. 😦

Start by deciding your overall goals for the car; daily commute driver, occasional road-only pleasure drives, occasional track day use, long vacation trips, ??? Then the build plan can be determined to suit the intended use.
 
Mr Cecchele, yes, it has ac and power windows.

Whatever I do for power I want to keep this X (I want another X and a Scorpion to get crazy with) in the Italian parts bin, which is a pretty big bin. I blame Pete Whitstone for this attitude.

Dr.Jeff, I have hundreds of well engineered back roads with no traffic all around me, as much as 2 or 3 hour roadtrips, very occasional autox for suspension tuning.

Ok, here's the scoop;

Currently
The previous owner, Mike "Tavalin", was pretty obsessive about restoring/refreshing everything to pretty strict oem standards. That's a good thing and after going through his seven pages of threads I realized that he did more than I could find in the threads. He cleaned up a lot of stuff that I greatly appreciate and am glad to not have to do myself! It's not a show car or BAT material but it could be with a little effort.

I need to take a pic of the containers of new spare parts and tools (such as spring compressors) - LOTS of goodies.

My general impressions;
- I'm mostly into corners and the suspension will need some work to take it beyond stock. This is the fun part for me and I'm so grateful for Steve H's and Bernice's feedback over the years. Can't wait!

- The brakes have been rebuilt but at least initially some grippier pads are in order.

- The motor is sweet and smooth as butter. I cannot find any head noises that Mike was worried about but think there is an exterior rattle I briefly heard. I spoke to Matt and I'm not worried about it. I gave it a pretty sound thrashing at all rpms and it feels great. We shall see.

- The tranny feels good I think but at the least some linkage adjusting is in order. I'm fairly gentle shifting but need to become better acquainted to it's foibles. Fourth to third is fantastic! Third to second I'm careful with.

What's Next
I have around $1,100 or $1,200 in parts to order this week from MWB. Matt's communications have been excellant;

- I ordered a used exhaust; Long Tube w/Sport Muffler, dual exhaust. Tavalin has a new stock system but I grabbed it anyway. Supposedly adds 6hp. and drops 25 lbs. Down the rabbit hole we go.

- Gear reduction starter.

- Pieces/parts; linkage stuff (lollypop), exhaust gasket etc., motor mount, camber bolts (isn't there a no slip bolt?).

- After getting all of that stuff attached I'll have a better feel for the next things to do. Most likely suspension stuff, pulling weight, and improving here and there, which I acknowledge is never ending.

- After the intial order I will have a $200 - $300 a month budget for a while.

The Future
Will stop here for now.
 
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Small comment here...I would just slot the mounting holes on the strut bodies and use the stock bolts to adjust camber - and save your money on camber bolts. If this isn't clear I can look for threads describing it, but it is very easy to do, works well, and lots of production cars are this way.
 
well exhaust improvements of some sort are always going to yield the biggest gain on a stock EFI x19 with a cat, so that would absolutely be my starting point.

My shopping list would be a Tipo / X19 or any one of the dual out cast iron manifolds and a tipo / ritmo / 128 dual front pipe to use as a basis for adaption to the standard large hung on springs stainless steel muffler, which actually does a very adequate job and most of all does not drone. Obviously thats involves buyng parts from europe / overseas, which isn't that hard, I've asked for and have also been offered help getting parts from germany / italy by various members here, and it's always worked out well.

The EFI engine presents "issues" with flow thru the manifold... you really do need to weld the undersides of the short lower section runners to get any meaningful porting done, but once you have the weld there, then matching and improving isn't too hard, but it is absolutely an essential step is your staying with the efi manifolding. Dont waste time changing throttle bodies for larger ones, thats not the point of flow restriction. I havent tested a hose / AFM but I also doubt that anything meaningful could be found there either until the manifold improves considerably.

IMO the absolute next best bang for buck would then be to stroke the engine, and the EFI USA spec engine actually suits it to a T. I have never had a stock USA spec head to look at and measure, until recently.

I bought a bunch of 1980 carb USA 1500 heads, I only really wanted one but the seller in italy made a great deal...anyway now I have them, and I was looking at one and the decompression recess is actually deeper than what most people say... not a biggie and in this case (or if you used forced induction) can be used to advantage.

Same with the big flycut lower compression height US spec pistons, to suit an application, they all of a sudden become a "performance" item I (and others) already use the readily available mondial 34.45 CH small flycut Mondial pistons in stroker applications, I machine the crown to give valve clearance and create a "dome" to get the CR I want for performance, but if your "aiming lower" as you just dont have the airflow available / using stock EFI computer / stock ignition / lower octane fuel, then you just don't want the 11.4:1 that I aim for with those pistons and a euro head...

BUT...

if you stroked and chose an appropriate head gasket and used a USA spec decompression recess head, then the additional stroke simply lifts the piston crown above deck height and into the cylinder head decompression recess. Stock USA piston is approc 34.5CH and sits approx 0.5mm below deck at TDC standard. Stroking from 63.9 to 67.4 gives a 3.5mm stroke change, but only half of that distance is "up" so we are talking the piston crown will now be 1.75mm above where it was, now sitting approx 1.25mm above the deck surface.

I haven't done the math yet, or done any physical check of valve / piston clearances, but looks like an easy 10:1 1581 cc engine with a crank change and not much else.. you dId say you didn't want to go into the block tho...

SteveC
 
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Steve, how deep is the recess in the US head?
I have wondered about this for a long time, if a 1600 crank wouldn‘t just happen to work well in a stock FI motor with CR and squish height/piston-to-head clearance just all working out by chance.

(BTW, I have 1600 crank, 87mm pistons and Tipo exhaust manifold for sale) :)
 
Thanks kmead, I'll probably go with the bolts until as you say I get things sorted out. Dr. Jeff, I would be interested in reading about your slotting methodology. Then I'll get the alignment where it needs to be so I can see what I'm dealing with. I'll most likely take the coilover route eventually.

Steve, that kind of stuff really gets me going. I'm taking the simpler route right now until health constraints are kicked out of my life - working at it very hard and I will succeed. If I do go into the block I would start with a seperate engine and probaly adifferent X. So, the flexibility there would very good. Whatever Italian pieces/parts bolts into the existing structure... 1.5,1.6,1.8,2.0? Now that's something I could start developing now while keeping this X relatively "mild". I'm supposed to be working - you're not helping! 😁
 
Regarding the camber bolts vs slotting, I was only saying that slotting is free and not difficult. So if the budget is very limited then it may a simple place to save a little money. But there is certainly nothing wrong with using the special bolts. The ones needed to fit the X's struts seem a little less common to find, so some sources charge way too much for them. And I've found some sources list some for the X that are not the correct size. Also there are two basic types of camber bolts. Some people have found one type might be a little more difficult to set or prone to losing their setting over time. But others prefer using camber bolts over modifying the holes on the strut mounting tabs. Just a matter of personal choice.
 
I have spent the last few weeks reading my 12 years of saved "searched" stuff (15 pages), and pms, etc. and somewhere in there an XWeber mentioned there were bolts that don't slip, maybe a Euro supply house? On my Civic Si the answer was to torque to 125lbs for effective results but apples and oranges. I'm also curious as to which is better; camber plates/slotting up top or camber adjusting from below. On the X is the kpi/scrub radius etc. better off with adjusting from below (on a relatively streetable alignment)? From above is fitting bigger tires a better choice? Yada, yada, yada. I still need to refresh and learn more re. X Suspension mods. I still have a cache of communiques from Steve H and Bernice to go through!

Oh, I have Paco Motorsport Hub Stands from Flyn Miata, Version 3 with the multiple bolt holes. I haven't checked yet but hope it takes 4x98.
 
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Hasbro said:
I have spent the last few weeks reading my 12 years of saved "searched" stuff (15 pages), and pms, etc. and somewhere in there an XWeber mentioned there were bolts that don't slip, maybe a Euro supply house? On my Civic Si the answer was to torque to 125lbs for effective results but apples and oranges. I'm also curious as to which is better; camber plates/slotting up top or camber adjusting from below. On the X is the kpi/scrub radius etc. better off with adjusting from below (on a relatively streetable alignment)? From above is fitting bigger tires a better choice? Yada, yada, yada. I still need to refresh and learn more re. X Suspension mods. I still have a cache of communiques from Steve H and Bernice to go through!

Oh, I have Paco Motorsport Hub Stands from Flyn Miata, Version 3 with the multiple bolt holes. I haven't checked yet but hope it takes 4x98.
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There are a few different types, some will add a wedge to ensure the don’t ’slide’ back. I have the ones sold by one of our members which are the better type.
 
kmead, and he is?....

I has happy
This is old news to everyone on here but I'm even loving the old stock suspension. It's so soft but it still works so well. I haven't had car tires any higher than 200 UTQG in 20 years, usually RA1s. The Federal SS 595s, with a UTQG of 460, feel like there's a layer of marshmellows for treads. "Sipey", if you will. You can literally bend the outer sipes down to the bottom of the channels! The dampers add more to the roll/tippy feel. But it works. I'm very tempted to throw the euro -35mm lowering springs (probably not much lower than the old stock springs anyway) on with the KYBs and thrash the Federals to death and then get R88rs and deal with the suspension then - spend the money initially on improving everything else. Whatchathink?

edit for correct weights; Spent some of the day pulling some weight, rear bumper, jack and spare, 65 lbs. Total 65 lbs.. Not counting the roof. So, it currently weighs 2,145. Absolute maximum will be 2,000 lbs. I wish I could drive an early X to get a good feel for the weight difference.

Edit 12/23 Front bumper, ancilleries; 25 lbs.. Haven't pulled bumper shocks yet. Total; 2,120.

What a great day.

X 12-22-20 pulling rear fender.jpg
 
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