A couple of interesting articles


The one about electrification resonates with me. I used to think EVs were stupid, then I drove a few. It was kind of like getting religion for me.

My experience was in many ways what I had read about motor journalists asking for in very magazines: smoothness, power, torque, and responsiveness. The sound and gears to shift are missing, but you get amazing "engine braking" and you're always in the right gear. You can also stomp on the go pedal whenever you want and not draw a lot of attention to yourself. The lower operating cost is also really nice.

My '80 X has been disassembled to the point where either a higher power option (K series, Ecotec, or EV swap) and restomod probably makes the most sense than a factory restoration. I'm leaning toward EV, because any donor I could get would end up providing comparable performance to a Tesla Roadster.
 
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The one about electrification resonates with me. I used to think EVs were stupid, then I drove a few. It was kind of like getting religion for me.

My experience was in many ways what I had read about motor journalists asking for in very magazines: smoothness, power, torque, and responsiveness. The boost and gears to shift are missing, but you get amazing "engine braking" and you're always in the right gear. You can also stomp on the go pedal whenever you want and not draw a lot of attention to yourself. The lower operating cost is also really nice.

My '80 X has been disassembled to the point where either a higher power option (K series, Ecotec, or EV swap) and restomod probably makes the most sense than a factory restoration. I'm leaning toward EV, because any donor I could get would end up providing comparable performance to a Tesla Roadster.
I have mixed feelings about electric cars. But I get what you are saying about the experience.

In my opinion the X is a excellent candidate for any swap (electric, Honda, GM, Ford, whatever) because it is lightweight, inexpensive to source, always seems to need a lot of work anyway (including structural repairs), and it has great styling once some custom work is done. And that's also the reason I'm not overly eager to restore one to original specs; it will be just as costly, just as much work, end up much less reliable, much lower performance level, and not look particularly good (a stock X is not attractive to me, but a customized one certainly is). So to me a restomod of some type is perhaps the best way to go.
 
I have mixed feelings about electric cars. But I get what you are saying about the experience.

In my opinion the X is a excellent candidate for any swap (electric, Honda, GM, Ford, whatever) because it is lightweight, inexpensive to source, always seems to need a lot of work anyway (including structural repairs), and it has great styling once some custom work is done. And that's also the reason I'm not overly eager to restore one to original specs; it will be just as costly, just as much work, end up much less reliable, much lower performance level, and not look particularly good (a stock X is not attractive to me, but a customized one certainly is). So to me a restomod of some type is perhaps the best way to go.
Agreed. For a car that needs cleaning and conserving, a sympathetic restoration is a great thing. I don't want to see most or all the classic cars changed from what they are.

To your point, the X is a great canvas for a restomod. You get that Italian, coach built exotic bodywork and the Fiat concept of moving a FWD drivetrain to the center of the car means that the great variety of options from the last 50 years of transverse FWD cars are out there if you can find the right shoehorn to make it fit.

Battery electric propulsion is in its infancy, compared to the last century of internal combustion vehicles. Infrastructure for "refueling" is also growing and developing, but I do love there convenience of plugging in at home and having a full charge when I leave in the morning.
 
According to my sources in the future development groups of the automotive industry, electric will not last all that long. They are now developing the next wave after it, biofuels.
 
The main problem with electric is the infrastructure needed for continual charging and the wait to accomplish that charging on longer range drives.
But yeah, driving an EV is eye opening mostly due to that instant torque no matter how small the car is. I've driven three EVs. First time was back in 2009 or 2010....a Tesla roadster. It was fun and cool, but I figured I liked less due to it being an electric motor than it was being a Lotus Elise underneath.

Fast forward to 2020 I drove a Fiat 500e. Loved it. If/when I need a short range kick around town car, I will pick up a 500e. Then a few months ago I drove my friend's Tesla Model X. Absolutely frickin' insane speed wise.

So I get it, yes. But I also have heartburn with the overall requirements to get there. Between battery production (and raw materials sourcing) and the required charging infrastructure when a large percentage of vehicles are electric (vs the single digit percentages now)....I think those two issues could be insurmountable. We'll see. Smarter people than me are working on all of that.
 
That brings up another issue that has been analyzed. Let's say the transportation industry finally goes electric on a major scale, like everyday commuting for the masses. And the required charging stations are made available for everyone's homes (the only practical method of recharging). Energy experts say our existing grid as a whole will not support the power demand. As it stands we already experience black outs, brown outs, rolling outages, and various energy cutbacks during the peak energy demand periods (e.g. summer heat and AC usage). Particularly in the larger metropolitan areas. Now add something like quadruple the demand when every home garage has to charge their electric vehicles every day. The amount of rebuilding the whole grid structure would need is astronomical and simply cost prohibitive. And where is all of that electricity going to come from in the first place? More nuclear power plants? There aren't enough places where hydroelectric power plants can be built, not to mention their impact on the environment. The planet simply cannot support that level of electrical demand without a significant environmental impact...which was the whole purpose for going electric in the first place.

On the topic of electrifying classic cars. I just saw this disgusting product advertised in a trade journal. For the muscle car guy that wants to go electric but not look like it. What a joke:
 
That brings up another issue that has been analyzed. Let's say the transportation industry finally goes electric on a major scale, like everyday commuting for the masses. And the required charging stations are made available for everyone's homes (the only practical method of recharging). Energy experts say our existing grid as a whole will not support the power demand. As it stands we already experience black outs, brown outs, rolling outages, and various energy cutbacks during the peak energy demand periods (e.g. summer heat and AC usage). Particularly in the larger metropolitan areas. Now add something like quadruple the demand when every home garage has to charge their electric vehicles every day. The amount of rebuilding the whole grid structure would need is astronomical and simply cost prohibitive. And where is all of that electricity going to come from in the first place? More nuclear power plants? There aren't enough places where hydroelectric power plants can be built, not to mention their impact on the environment. The planet simply cannot support that level of electrical demand without a significant environmental impact...which was the whole purpose for going electric in the first place.

On the topic of electrifying classic cars. I just saw this disgusting product advertised in a trade journal. For the muscle car guy that wants to go electric but not look like it. What a joke:
It might not be such a bad idea if they didn't make it appear like a really fake looking V8.
 
That brings up another issue that has been analyzed. Let's say the transportation industry finally goes electric on a major scale, like everyday commuting for the masses. And the required charging stations are made available for everyone's homes (the only practical method of recharging). Energy experts say our existing grid as a whole will not support the power demand. As it stands we already experience black outs, brown outs, rolling outages, and various energy cutbacks during the peak energy demand periods (e.g. summer heat and AC usage). Particularly in the larger metropolitan areas. Now add something like quadruple the demand when every home garage has to charge their electric vehicles every day. The amount of rebuilding the whole grid structure would need is astronomical and simply cost prohibitive. And where is all of that electricity going to come from in the first place? More nuclear power plants? There aren't enough places where hydroelectric power plants can be built, not to mention their impact on the environment. The planet simply cannot support that level of electrical demand without a significant environmental impact...which was the whole purpose for going electric in the first place.

On the topic of electrifying classic cars. I just saw this disgusting product advertised in a trade journal. For the muscle car guy that wants to go electric but not look like it. What a joke:

We've been thinking about the future demand on the electrical grid also.......it has to be huge... How come nobody else is talking about that? Also, we read that the blades on the wonderful wind turbines have a life span and then need to be replaced, but are made of nonrecyclable materials, so they end up being buried. Another thing you don't hear people talking about is the "footprint" created in the manufacture of these cars versus the cars that have been in use for 30-50 years. One good thing about electrical cars is that now that we are friends with "Taliban II", we will have access to a lot of lithium for the batteries!(not really funny)
 
We've been thinking about the future demand on the electrical grid also.......it has to be huge... How come nobody else is talking about that? Also, we read that the blades on the wonderful wind turbines have a life span and then need to be replaced, but are made of nonrecyclable materials, so they end up being buried. Another thing you don't hear people talking about is the "footprint" created in the manufacture of these cars versus the cars that have been in use for 30-50 years. One good thing about electrical cars is that now that we are friends with "Taliban II", we will have access to a lot of lithium for the batteries!(not really funny)
I know there has been some research regarding the footprint related to making the batteries and it is not good. I don't know how the manufacturing of the rest of the EV will impact things compared to making cars today.

I recently saw something about the blades on those wind generators. They are so huge and spin at speeds high enough that the leading edge of the blades hitting regular molecules of air - and all of the normal things that exist in the air - is like sandblasting. The blades erode and that significantly affects the aerodynamics to the point the generator slows to a unproductive speed. Apparently the latest "fix" is to apply helo tape to the edges, but that is not a great long term answer. I believe they said something like a third of all wind generators are not producing power due to such issues. I know they are more popular in Europe than here. But their experience isn't extremely encouraging for the future use of them here.

All in all I found it very interesting to hear that the leaders in future transportation development have already dismissed electric vehicles and are looking at better answers. So why are we still going that direction?
 
Let me add my opinion that converting old cars to electric is missing the point of owning and driving old cars. If all you're after is an electric car that looks like a Fiat (be it an X1/9, 850, 600, etc) then fine. Have at it. But you're no longer driving a vintage Fiat. You're driving an electric car with a Fiat body on it. You have completely changed the dynamics and character of the car.

The experience of driving an X1/9 or an 850, in my opinion, is 100% about driving the car largely as it was originally designed. I love the sounds, the smells, the double clutching/heel toeing, hitting redline in every gear merging on to the freeway in my X1/9 and hitting redline in every gear merging in city streets in my 850 (hey, it's an 850...)

So no, I won't be converting any of my cars to electric anytime soon...
 
Let me add my opinion that converting old cars to electric is missing the point of owning and driving old cars. If all you're after is an electric car that looks like a Fiat (be it an X1/9, 850, 600, etc) then fine. Have at it. But you're no longer driving a vintage Fiat. You're driving an electric car with a Fiat body on it. You have completely changed the dynamics and character of the car.

The experience of driving an X1/9 or an 850, in my opinion, is 100% about driving the car largely as it was originally designed. I love the sounds, the smells, the double clutching/heel toeing, hitting redline in every gear merging on to the freeway in my X1/9 and hitting redline in every gear merging in city streets in my 850 (hey, it's an 850...)

So no, I won't be converting any of my cars to electric anytime soon...
AMEN
 
Let me add my opinion that converting old cars to electric is missing the point of owning and driving old cars. If all you're after is an electric car that looks like a Fiat (be it an X1/9, 850, 600, etc) then fine. Have at it. But you're no longer driving a vintage Fiat. You're driving an electric car with a Fiat body on it. You have completely changed the dynamics and character of the car.

The experience of driving an X1/9 or an 850, in my opinion, is 100% about driving the car largely as it was originally designed. I love the sounds, the smells, the double clutching/heel toeing, hitting redline in every gear merging on to the freeway in my X1/9 and hitting redline in every gear merging in city streets in my 850 (hey, it's an 850...)

So no, I won't be converting any of my cars to electric anytime soon...
I'm curious, I assume that also applies the same way to X1/9's with the Honda K20 drivetrain? Have they lost the "Fiat" character? Or I guess the same applies for the newer designs that are a retro style (discussed in another thread), or any older cars with restomods (also discussed elsewhere)?

Honestly I see both sides of that. I get what you mean and there certainly is something to that original character. I think a similar way to describe it might be the experience of driving a slow car fast. There is also something to be said for the added performance, enhanced capability, improved reliability and drivability of a restomod. Even a old body with electric power has the design 'style' but a different character. And all of them are unique, offering their own kind of experience.

For example I find the same thing with motorcycles. Personally I prefer to ride old bikes with ancient technology over the modern performance bikes. Yet with old cars I'm the other way around, I prefer the excitement of a high performance restomod.

This is why we need to own several toys, one for every mood. :)
 
If all you're after is an electric car that looks like a Fiat (be it an X1/9, 850, 600, etc) then fine. Have at it. But you're no longer driving a vintage Fiat. You're driving an electric car with a Fiat body on it. You have completely changed the dynamics and character of the car.
That is true, but also true of other restomods. Doubling or quadrupling the power the car originally had also changes the dynamics. Maybe in a fun way, but not the same.

As a product designer, I respect appreciating something for what it was intended to be.

I also respect those who find something cast aside and continue building where the original designer left off.
 
I'm curious, I assume that also applies the same way to X1/9's with the Honda K20 drivetrain? Have they lost the "Fiat" character? Or I guess the same applies for the newer designs that are a retro style (discussed in another thread), or any older cars with restomods (also discussed elsewhere)?

Honestly I see both sides of that. I get what you mean and there certainly is something to that original character. I think a similar way to describe it might be the experience of driving a slow car fast. There is also something to be said for the added performance, enhanced capability, improved reliability and drivability of a restomod. Even a old body with electric power has the design 'style' but a different character. And all of them are unique, offering their own kind of experience.

For example I find the same thing with motorcycles. Personally I prefer to ride old bikes with ancient technology over the modern performance bikes. Yet with old cars I'm the other way around, I prefer the excitement of a high performance restomod.

This is why we need to own several toys, one for every mood. :)

This is highly subjective. There's a fat gray zone here that spans simple mods like dual carbs and headers to full on K20 conversions. This could easily be its own thread: When does a modified car become something too far form the original? I think a K20 X1/9 crosses the line. I was doing restomods back in the 90's. I built my '74 X1/9 to be the best of all the years (IMO). 1974 chassis, 1985 leather interior including dash, FI 1500 hot rodded engine, 5 pd. That was my restomod using all Fiat components. I have an Uno Turbo engine I'm going to build next. Even that I would consider at the edge of going too far. I think using a non-Fiat drivetrain is clearly too far. And yes, I have been around a couple of K20s, even been in one on the track. It's a fast car, impressively so, but it's not a Fiat X1/9.

Don't interpret this as being anti-mod, none of my cars are stock and for sure do what you want with your car. I just think at some point it's clearly something too far removed from the original design, and we all decide for ourselves where that point is. That doesn't make it a "worse" car, it just makes it a "different" car. I would not consider an electric or K20 X1/9 to be an X1/9 anymore. I mean, it's like 4x the power and a Japanese motor and gearbox with a wonky shifter. How do you call that a "Fiat" X1/9? It sure started life as one, but now it's mutated into something different.
 
This is highly subjective. There's a fat gray zone here that spans simple mods like dual carbs and headers to full on K20 conversions. This could easily be its own thread: When does a modified car become something too far form the original? I think a K20 X1/9 crosses the line. I was doing restomods back in the 90's. I built my '74 X1/9 to be the best of all the years (IMO). 1974 chassis, 1985 leather interior including dash, FI 1500 hot rodded engine, 5 pd. That was my restomod using all Fiat components. I have an Uno Turbo engine I'm going to build next. Even that I would consider at the edge of going too far. I think using a non-Fiat drivetrain is clearly too far. And yes, I have been around a couple of K20s, even been in one on the track. It's a fast car, impressively so, but it's not a Fiat X1/9.

Don't interpret this as being anti-mod, none of my cars are stock and for sure do what you want with your car. I just think at some point it's clearly something too far removed from the original design, and we all decide for ourselves where that point is. That doesn't make it a "worse" car, it just makes it a "different" car. I would not consider an electric or K20 X1/9 to be an X1/9 anymore. I mean, it's like 4x the power and a Japanese motor and gearbox with a wonky shifter. How do you call that a "Fiat" X1/9? It sure started life as one, but now it's mutated into something different.
I completely get what you mean. And as you say, it is a personal choice. What I do with my cars is purely for my own satisfaction, and I respect the same for everyone else. I'm glad that there are those who like to preserve cars in the completely original/stock state, and those that like to keep everything "in the family", as well as those that feel anything goes. As you say, it makes the cars different, not better or worse. The world would be very boring if everything was the same.

I'm not sure exactly where or why it started but for as far back as I can remember I've always viewed any car with thoughts of how it could have been done differently. Sort of, "if only they had done this or that". And that has evolved over the years, I've developed into a complete modification/customization fanatic. To the point I can't leave any vehicle stock or original in any way. For the most part every car I build gets a little wildier and further from where it started. It is something of a challenge to test my skills and see what I can accomplish. In a way I suppose it might not have a lot to do with the cars themselves really.

But as I get older I find it more difficult to do that much work and it takes a lot longer to complete. So at some point I will have to redirect my interests back a bit more conservative.
 
On the subject of electric vehicles. This morning I read a report from a industry study that found the vast majority of Americans still prefer the idea of gas and diesel powered vehicles over electric. By almost 80%! At first that surprised me a little, thinking there were more people interested in electric cars. But then as I thought about the public at large, most people are not car nuts like us and probably don't give it much thought. I'm sure the majority just don't care and will buy whatever the market is selling. For now that is still gas powered.
 
On the subject of electric vehicles. This morning I read a report from a industry study that found the vast majority of Americans still prefer the idea of gas and diesel powered vehicles over electric. By almost 80%! At first that surprised me a little, thinking there were more people interested in electric cars. But then as I thought about the public at large, most people are not car nuts like us and probably don't give it much thought. I'm sure the majority just don't care and will buy whatever the market is selling. For now that is still gas powered.
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Most people have not yet driven one. I think a lot of people don't realize that the generation of EVs coming out right now have decent range and fast charge capability.

The trade off of a longer refuel on a trip is offset by most of your refueling occurring at home.
 
I get the draw of electric vehicles. Honestly the hill climb guys south of the border IMO are out to lunch, investing thousands on big motors and the problems with getting the power to the wheels. Electric would be king of the hill in no time IMO. Still, battery life is an issue, the article mentions getting almost 80 km on a charge. The other day in my work van I did 491 km and almost a tank of fuel.
 
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