Alternative Engine Swaps...

Realistic thinking...

All in, I was able to pull off my k20 swap for just around $8k +/-. But that was me doing ALL the metal and fab work where I had to. I farmed out the fab for my fuel tank and Bob Brown had a cluster already to go with custom Marshall gauges. Biggest single expense was the kit from Midwest Bayless.

I had already done the suspension and brake upgrade prior to the swap - the suspension upgrade is a must.
 
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Toyota

I have an X with a 4age MR2 engine and trans in it. Can't take the credit, I just bought it that way with a bad trans. I have a replacement but yet to get er done. I believe this car's build was written up in Grassroots Motor Sports at the time, like maybe 10 years ago.
 
If our local regulations wouldn't say no to Saab B204 engine in X, I would try.

B204 turbo engines are quite cheap here and Trionic 5.5 engine management can be transfered out of Saab. In Finland and Sweden we have many people who have the know-how for programming Trionic engine management systems.

Best way would be to use B206 cylinder block and B234 internals and cylinder head, B2X4 engines are known to be srtong and easy to get quite a lots of power.

An example:
http://www.serioussaab.co.uk/articles_pages/B2x4tribute.html
 
Being a SAAB turbo fan, need to comment.

The original SAAB B234 (late 1989 to about 1993) which was a ground up SAAB/Scanica design is an excellent turbo motor. When 50% of SAAB ownership became GM, the folks at SAAB had to shorten the original B234 series to fit into the SAAB modified GM body shell. There were several inches that had to be removed from the motor and gear box to make it all fit. Between shortening the original B234 and designing a new gear box, the SAAB folks got it done. The gear box designed by SAAB became a GM staple for many of the cars GM produced. In time, this SAAB design was modified, altered and lives on to this day. There are a number of aftermarket gears, LSD and parts swapping that is possible with the F25 series gear box.

Problem with fitting this series of SAAB power trains into the exxe is exhaust and tubo orientation. Given the cramped engine box of the exxe, cooling will be an issue as the entire exhaust side ends up against the bulkhead (fire wall) between the engine box and passenger compartment and very close to the fuel tank. The engine compartment in the Lancia MonteCarlo is larger as it was originally intended to fit a V6 making this power train installation more possible.

If this pre-GM SAAB power train could be installed properly into an exxe chassis it could be one of the more interesting conversions that could be done. Worth noting that the SAAB B204/B234 has a good track record at just over 500 Bhp at 450 lb/ft of torque. Notable, the SAAB Pikes Peak record holder was noted to be some where at 900+ Bhp using a stock SAAB block & crank (forged chrome moly steel and nitrided). These are real world reliable and prove tough, durable motors with many possible tuning options.

It would be great to see this SAAB power train properly and nicely installed into an exxe chassis with all the proper chassis-suspension-brakes done as a complete design.



Bernice

ippe said:
If our local regulations wouldn't say no to Saab B204 engine in X, I would try.

B204 turbo engines are quite cheap here and Trionic 5.5 engine management can be transfered out of Saab. In Finland and Sweden we have many people who have the know-how for programming Trionic engine management systems.

Best way would be to use B206 cylinder block and B234 internals and cylinder head, B2X4 engines are known to be srtong and easy to get quite a lots of power.

An example:
http://www.serioussaab.co.uk/articles_pages/B2x4tribute.html
Click to expand...
 
Here is the SAE paper on Ecotec race motor published in 2002.
http://papers.sae.org/2002-01-3354/

The "GM" Ecotec is NOT a pure General Motors design, it was a design collaboration between SAAB, Opel, Lotus Engineering and GM.

As for stock production parts being used in race applications. One of the most notable is the BMW M10 which was used as the basis for their 1000 to 1800+ Bhp Formula One race engines running at or over 90 psi of boost.

Unless one is building a drag race exxe, none of this is of much relevance as none of these 1000+ Bhp turbo motors will stand full throttle for any extended length of time, they will ALL grenade sooner than later.

There remains the issue of turbo lag, no matter how well a conventional turbo is implemented there will always be some degree of turbo lag. Given the design intent of the exxe is really more light weight highly responsive go-cart than touring or drag race chassis, to keep with its original design intent and best aspects of it's original design goals, a highly responsive, high RPM normally aspirated motor would be preferred.

Any chassis with out aero aids will be traction limited by it's tires. There is always so much gear head focus on having as much motor power as possible while little consideration is given to actual traction available and control of power available. A true performance road car is far more than just a whipper motor, it is much about overall balance of all factors involved.


Bernice



stingray250 said:
I did look into the Saab for power... And as all have stated... The exhaust just isn't in the right place for this swap to be practical... It's possible sure, but not practical... The Ecotec on the other hand you'd swear was almost built to be turbocharged... The well though internal design includes girdled block and piston oilers... It literally begs for a power upgrade... The latest generation of Ecotecs now sport direct injection... If at a later date I decide to go with a turbo setup... The turbo ends up in the trunk area... Not a big deal.

I have my trans on the way... The Engine I'm still sourcing as I want to get the best low mileage motor for the price... Right now 700.00 buys me a 49k motor... Harness and ECU another 800.00... With a header and performance tune... This unit will make 190hp... Pretty darn good if you ask me.

As far as power goes...

The Ecotec holds the 4cyl world speed record * 6.71 * 206mph... 1/4 mile pass...
Click to expand...
 
You can of course swap in almost anything.

If you think about it the original X1/9 started out as a motor swap, they took the drivetrain out of the front drive 128 sedan.

Often when modifying the X the rear trunk becomes part of the engine compartment. That has happened with mine, due to the twin side draft carbs.

Typically a car of this vintage, most keep in line with the age of the car, carbs instead of injection, and keep the original motor set-up. Although some have converted to other engines and trans.

I would think almost any front drive set-up could be made to work, just have to cut away anything that keeps it from fitting, and get a set of axles made to connect it the wheels.

It would seems simplier to just start with a MR2, less rust and newer overall, and more capable engine.

It will be fun to see how you progress with this, would be great to see pictures of the original car and progress of the modification.
 
If you really want a wild engine conversion, get a fiero and swap in a V-8, of course that has been done before, but that would have lots of potential.

Also there is a kit to convert a ford focus to V-8 front engine, rear drive, no sheetmetal modification required.

The Fiat x 1/9 might be somewhat limiting for swaps, since the original engine compartment was so small, it is a very compact car.
 
Looks very nice in there. Please keep posting and feel free to include details (hint hint) :)

Will this have a turbo or stay NA? Will you be using the original intake manifold or an alternate to better fit the space in front of the engine?

Will you use standard GM engine management?
 
I guess I forgot to post my favorite engine swap...

and it too can probably be acquired for less than $100 bucks and another grand in welding rod.



This "swap" was done by taking a 472 Caddy engine and FWD drivetrain out of a late 60's El Dorado and welding it to the back of an X1/9... much like the Fiat Folks originally did using the drivetrain out of a 128.

I remember seeing videos of this car with an open differential and if he gave it a little gas... it would lift the front end and wanna go left. I believe the front brakes, and everything else up front was inadequately left stock. CRAZY but it almost coulda been done right... but then never "right" in my book.

I do like the effort put into the "equal-length" headers though!
 
Keep SAAB-Scania, GM-"SAAB" separate as they are NOT the same in any way.

Late 1999-2000 when GM took over 100% ownership of SAAB-Cars, GM did a severe cost reduction program on the original SAAB-Scania B204 & B234 engine turning them into the well known B205 & B235 death by oil sludge, fragile and severely cheapened engines. For 2-3 years this fiasco cause by the profit driven bean counters and inept GM management essentially ruined the SAAB brand. During that time, SAAB-Scania was still producing engines using a facility connected to the Scania foundry. SAAB AB (the parent Aerospace and Military company) sold off Scania to VW cutting off GM's access to the original SAAB engine design and production.

About 2003, GM began production of "SAAB" cars using GM ecotech engines shared across the rest of the GM brand.

SAAB-Scania intake manifolds are NOT likely going to fit a GM ecotech engine.

As for the SAAB brand, the current Chinese owners "SAAB" cars has been forbidden to use the SAAB brand name by SAAB AB. Which is a good thing as SAAB AB learned something after what GM did to SAAB cars.


Bernice


stingray250 said:
Saab intake... About 1/3rd the size of the GM factory manifold... And Aluminum to boot... Shhhhhhhhh.... I can't say any more!!!
Click to expand...
 
That fits about as well as the k-series does. I like it. You may be doing some work on a custom intake mani or firewall work.

I would try to do the least amount of engine bay fab as you can. Other words, don't do this (if you can avoid it):

IMG_00042.jpg


It was a lot of work and eliminates spare wheel well pretty much.
 
stingray250 said:
Man... Looks brutal...





Tight fit no doubt... No where near the removal you would incur with the K20 swap... The support in the bottom of the pic serves two purposes... One to support the trans mount and two to reinforce the frame section I removed... It is welded to the wheel well mid way from rail to rail. Welds aren't the greatest, 1/8" to 18ga kinda makes a bit of a mess... I'll "seam seal" all the welds when I'm closer to paint.

No worries...
Click to expand...

To be fair; this was MY version of the k20 swap. Others (Rodger) was able to do it with far less.

That said, IF I didn't do that metal work, I wouldn't have the room for this:

upload_-1.jpg


:thumbsup:
 
stingray250 said:
Ahhhhh I see.... Kraftwerks belt driven turbo... B series?

Any numbers on the power output?

I guess when I eventually go turbo I'll fab another turbo manifold like I did for my VW and just slap a subi TD05 on it... Pretty straight forward... Even has an internal waste gate... So easy a caveman could do it... Oh.... Wait... That would be me... Nevermind...




Click to expand...

Kraftwerks supercharger (ugh) and bracket setup from TTS Performance in UK.

I am not quite done and I have no idea what numbers to expect. I am going to hold off on any posts till after I get it all tuned and give a DETAILED write up after.

-Tim
 
Tim, That last pic is worthy of a separate thread. Hope I'm not being obvious but you've let the car out of the bag. Let's have the entire press release, briefing and specs! Ohh and way too many pics than necessarily.
 
stingray250 said:
Ahhhhh I see.... Kraftwerks belt driven turbo... B series?

Any numbers on the power output?

I guess when I eventually go turbo I'll fab another turbo manifold like I did for my VW and just slap a subi TD05 on it... Pretty straight forward... Even has an internal waste gate... So easy a caveman could do it... Oh.... Wait... That would be me... Nevermind...




Click to expand...


Nice work BTW. Very interested to see how this goes...
 
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