Another Clutch Operation Thread

[lookforjoe]

Seeing the new thread reminded me I've been meaning to post about my concern - my clutch engages with the pedal very close to the floor. I have in the past replaced the slave / hydraulic line / rod & the actual clutch, and the pivot bushing in the bell housing.

I don't recall if it has always been this way, and all four of our cars are manuals, so I can never keep track of variations in actuation. I do know it doesn't 'feel' right as it is.

I did remove the pedal spring, and mine never had a return spring at the lever.

I have not touched or looked at the master cyl, the actuation rod or anything else buried up under the dash. The pedal does not feel as though it has freeplay on the front end that would explain delayed action & subsequent low pedal engagement on release.

Anyone have experience similar, is this normal for others, or do I need to start planning a pedal box overhaul :drink:

EDIT: Older thread where I first noted the clutch problem

Problem was in fact the lever / fork retaining bolt sheared, allowing lever to mover without actuating the fork

 

[ianlawson]

Join the X clutch "heartache" club, Hussein!

......I have not touched or looked at the master cyl, the actuation rod or anything else buried up under the dash. The pedal does not feel as though it has freeplay on the front end that would explain delayed action & subsequent low pedal engagement on release.
Anyone have experience similar,nod is this normal for others, or do I need to start planning a pedal box overhaul :nod: .....

The symptoms you describe are almost IDENTICAL to what occurred to my 1300 X about 6 weeks ago! In particular, the feeling of a "soft-ish" clutch pedal, combined with clutch engagement right at the "bottom" of the pedal actuation.
I pondered on this "strange" feeling for a few days (1st big mistake), and didn't worry too much as I hadn't been using my X for some weeks before.
Then suddenly, when out on a trip still about 5 miles from home, whaaaat - no clutch action at all! :cry:.
After 5 miles of "hard-shifting", with a set of traffic lights in between (I snuck through just before the RED), I got home.
I have completed the dreaded pedal box o/haul (new clutch and brake master cyls + new clutch slave cyl), I am still having trouble achieving any "clutch pedal" after numerous fluid bleeding exercises!
Currently, I have closed the door on my garage with the X still inside, waiting in despair for Aussie Clutch Guru bmCk :worship: to arrive at my front door with his magic clutch-bleeding skills!! :rolleyes2:

cheers, Ian - NZ

 

[Tavalin]

Ian,
When he is done bleeding yours send him my way. I need to have mine bled.
Mike


Nebraska Mike

 

[bmck]

waiting in despair for Aussie Clutch Guru bmCk :worship: to arrive at my front door with his magic clutch-bleeding skills!! :rolleyes2:

Lawso, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with son#3's wedding last weekend and son#2's wedding in six weeks, it's all go around here.

Even with your offer of first class flights, accom and open-ended Monteith's voucher, it would not be worth my while in the matrimonial department to whiz across the ditch.

I'm afraid you're Robinson Crusoe on this one.

Perhaps you could tempt SteveC?

Brian

 

[lookforjoe]

Yeah, I took a closer look at the pedals this afternoon - stroking it by hand there is play / looseness in the top end of the travel (initial push) and I got some brake fluid on my hand off the pedal arm.

So, it's time to drop the pedal box. I printed out complete directions from on here some years ago - so now I just have to find where I saved them :rolleyes2:

 

[ianlawson]

Priorities, priorities, Brian maaaate.....!!

...... it would not be worth my while in the matrimonial department to whiz across the ditch......

Just use your "marketing skills" when negotiating with your "dearly beloved", Brian! :boxing:
Hey, wotz a couple of weddings in the family, mate, when you could enjoy some beeeoootiful sun, surfing, top-class Kapiti Coast beachside bars, etc. :woot:
Tell those lads of yours that they can get married any old day of the week! :huh2:

cheers, Ian - NZ (X-less at the mo!)

 

[ianlawson]

Priorities, priorities, Brian maaaate.....!!

...... it would not be worth my while in the matrimonial department to whiz across the ditch......

Just use your "marketing skills" when negotiating with your "dearly beloved", Brian! :boxing:
Hey, wotz a couple of weddings in the family, mate, when you could enjoy some beeeoootiful sun, surfing, top-class Kapiti Coast beachside bars, etc. :woot:
Tell those lads of yours that they can get married any old day of the week! :huh2:

cheers, Ian - NZ (X-less at the mo!)

 

[lookforjoe]

Ok - no time like the present to get in this -

Seat removed, column dropped and set aside.

Of course more work will be needed when it goes back ....






Seepy seepy

All the bits & bobs out the way in the cowl

Cut the lines here & stuffed bolts in the ends to the reservoirs so I could pull them out without dropping the residual fluid. I emptied the reservoirs first of all.

Laid out for measurement of replacement sections - just have to add inside cut length

Pedal box out. No drama here

Both masters are weeping out the front ends



New masters in place. I did one set of lines at a time. I noticed the Centrix master had a slightly off position relative to the pin - so I spaced out with a couple washers to keep the cylinder in line

Reusing old fittings - larger delivery ID

Hoses in place. I bought the same Goodyear 1/4" hoses Jeff had used - from the Tractor Supply. I used otiker clamps.

Just have to bench bleed them before I put it in the car, hopefully tomorrow , Monday at worst

 

[LarryC]

So Hussein , are you using "new" masters?

The reason I ask is because most of us are having better luck rebuilding our original master cylinders. I did that after trying a "new" set of master cylinders for a few years. The clutch was never much better. Rebuilding my old ones got things much closer to way I remember the clutch working. Still not to my satisfaction yet, but better. With your skills at chasing these sorts of things down, I am hoping that you can get to the bottom of the clutch system issues. I eagerly await the results of your current efforts. Frankly the clutch problems are starting to take their toll on the fun of driving these cars.

 

[ianlawson]

Great progress there, Hussein......!

.......Of course more work will be needed when it goes back.....
Just have to bench bleed them before I put it in the car, hopefully tomorrow , Monday at worst....

Nice clear pics of the "operation"!!

One point has me VERY intrigued - the rearward-facing direction of the fluid input nozzle on the clutch master cyl in your pic!!
This was same direction that the old clutch master cyl nozzle was pointing on my X when I removed it.
The new clutch master cyl, received from Midwest, had that nozzle pointing in a forward-facing direction!
I attempted to rotate the nozzle on the new cyl in a rearward-facing direction (as per the original) but it was VERY tightly fixed in position, nozzle facing forward!
So I installed the new clutch master cyl, with new fluid hose, into the pedal-box assy as received!
With the difficulty I am having in bleeding the clutch hydraulic system, I am wondering if this different position of the fluid-input nozzle/hose may be restricting the fluid flow into the new master cyl??

Your thoughts on this??

cheers, Ian - NZ

 

[lookforjoe]

The reason I ask is because most of us are having better luck rebuilding our original master cylinders. I did that after trying a "new" set of master cylinders for a few years. The clutch was never much better. Rebuilding my old ones got things much closer to way I remember the clutch working. Still not to my satisfaction yet, but better. With your skills at chasing these sorts of things down, I am hoping that you can get to the bottom of the clutch system issues. I eagerly await the results of your current efforts. Frankly the clutch problems are starting to take their toll on the fun of driving these cars.

Hi Larry - Yeah, I bought new masters. After all I've read from others, I'm kinda assuming I will need to rebuild my originals and do this over down the road. Did you make note of the correct seal numbers to use for rebuild? Not clear on the listings on Obert's site. The stainless sleeve insert was Rapunzel's suggested method if I recall correctly - couldn't find her comprehensive thread of course...

It would be nice to be wrong, but I don't have high hopes after reading your and others experiences. Just finished re-reading your post on the various bleeding proceedures. My basic approach is to pre-bleed the cylinders - I did forget to save three fittings to plug the junction outlets - so that may not go as planned.

 

[lookforjoe]

With the difficulty I am having in bleeding the clutch hydraulic system, I am wondering if this different position of the fluid-input nozzle/hose may be restricting the fluid flow into the new master cyl??

Your thoughts on this??

cheers, Ian - NZ

Hi Ian

I wouldn't expect the line fitting direction to make any difference - esp. since the pair on the brake master also face downhill. There is of course the possibility that it is allowing air to be trapped in the line. If that is the only difference & you cannot get a pedal, it does sound like it would be worth rotating the fitting - some silicone spray in the neck between the grommet should allow it to rotate - easier said than done, I know once it's all back in place.

However, if your clutch master from bayless has the original style inlet that DOESN'T use the large grommet to retain it, I don't think it will be possible to rotate without causing damage to the fitting.

I've been thinking about your troubles while I was working on it today, I hope you are able to resolve the issue!

 

[LarryC]

Hussein, here is what I have on the parts.

Here is the order document with the relevant parts. I re-did my slave cylinder too. The replacement I had used earlier was the strange style with the cone-shaped end as opposed to the original with the little spring, in other words, the original had two seals. Oddly, I notice that the parts numbers are scrambled in the order document relative to the factory numbers. But no matter, the parts were all the correct parts.







I reversed those two through-bolts on the master cylinders at the pedal box last time I did this. So this time I did not need to drop the pedals to do the clutch master. Saved a lot of grief. The grief will be doing the pedal box when I have to do the brake master in the future. Also I did not sleeve the master this time as it looked pretty smooth. But we will see how long the rebuild lasts. I might need to do that next time.

 

[mikemo90]

master cyls

Fiat never sold "oversized" seals for a re-bore of the cylinders, master, slave, or wheel cylinders. cheaper to r&r than renew considering bench time. oh yea they had the hone in the necessary tool catalog, but bench time meant down time for the mechanic.
also check for ovaling of the pushrod and galling in the shaft.
hope this helps. nothing worse than having to do it a second time:tomato:
mikemo

 

[lookforjoe]

Thanks, Larry. I'll order those up. I forgot about the reversing bolts part of the procedure - that pretty much guarantees that the clutch master I bought will be defective out of the box.

Mike - if my bores are worn I will have them sleeved to original ID.

Put the pedal box back in -snaked the attached hoses up & out the grommet hole. Can't imagine trying to attach the hoses after placing the pedal box . Used M12 bolts with teflon after filling the MC's.

Hoses routed over to pass side. I used M7 bolts to plug the lines after backfilling them and the MC's outside the vehicle.

Can be pushed in, have to be unthreaded to remove - no fluid leaked in the process

Brake master bled easily. Clutch, I put a container of fluid off a hose connected to the loosened bleeder on the valve, and stroked the pedal. Got some air out the line, then nothing. No firming of the pedal. Tomorrow I'll use a pressure bleeder.

EDIT: thinking over the clutch bleeding - I didn't see a noticeable drop in the reservoir level - I put it up on the windshield to make sure it was high up for air bubble release, and so I could watch it from inside. Based on that, I'm thinking I have a kink in the hose - that would explain the lack of pedal and the lack of fluid volume at the MC line fitting. I'll drop the pedal assy a touch & check the hoses - I may have pulled on it too much & caused a kink is my thinking....

 

[LarryC]

Ha! Here we go.

Cue the Twilight Zone music.:rolleyes2:

 

[jvandyke]

I remember being advised to replace the long bolts with threaded rods and nut them from both sides so either clutch or brake can be dropped a bit more easily. 119,000 on my brake master and counting.:huh2:

 

[ianlawson]

Exactly the same scenario with my X!!!

......thinking over the clutch bleeding - I didn't see a noticeable drop in the reservoir level - I put it up on the windshield to make sure it was high up for air bubble release, and so I could watch it from inside. Based on that, I'm thinking I have a kink in the hose - that would explain the lack of pedal and the lack of fluid volume at the MC line fitting. I'll drop the pedal assy a touch & check the hoses - I may have pulled on it too much & caused a kink is my thinking....

Seems like the X1/9 "Gods" are laughing at both of us, Hussein!! :mad4:
I have conceded defeat at present!
I am resting up my poor old back "muscles" (wot muscles!) for a while until I build up enough enthusiasm to have another clutch-bleeding battle!
Please find an answer soon - I am following your "experience" with baited breath!!

cheers, Ian - NZ

 

[Rod Midkiff]

It sounds a lot like my first clutch master change on ziiiip. I was looking at buying it but it was in the middle of a clutch master swap. So I went and helped. finished the job and could not bleed it. As luck would have it the po has a 2nd after market clutch. so what the heck we swapped to that one. (it also had a problem wrong threads on the pressure port) but that we could swap between the two. The 2nd one bleed fairly easily. A trick that was a major help. instead of closing the bleed nipple between each pump I just held my finger over the port so the pressure would push my thumb out of the way, but air would not re-enter. Once I got no spurts of air I switched to the close at each pump. It has been working great ever since.

 

[jvandyke]

Tony has recommended cracking open the ouput line at the master and pump until juice squirts in your eye and all over your carpet, then tighten, move to the slave hose banjo fitting and crack that open and pump until a suitable mess is made there, then tighten and with the slave rod slightly extended, start in on the actual bleeder valve at the slave.
Of course, if you've pinched the supply line, all this is useless, super easy to pinch those closed as you bolt up the pedal box.