<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Autocross and Track Days<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 14 2000 at 1:33 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Ulix [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I ran my first autocross of this season yesterday. I had forgotten how much fun it is. I even met a fellow X1/9 racer, Alex. He knows about this site and said he pops in here sometimes.
Autocrossing really shows what a great sportscar an X1/9 is, even 25 years old. I am a novice racer and was running on very worn street rubber that has no stick left, and I was still able to get times comparable to others running late model sportscars, some on race rubber. I am hoping to soon be using my race tires that I bought used from Mark Plaia.
The biggest thrill is not getting fast times, but driving the car at the absolute limit without danger. If you go too fast, you spin and everyone goes "Wow!". That's it.
Driving around Seattle traffic can make me doubt my car and the modifications I have made to it, but one good lap will make me love my car again
Now I am wondering how hard it is to get on a real race track. Are there local track days that I could get into? A member of the Alfa club once told me that they have track days in which Fiat guys sometimes parttake. Does anyone have any info?
Thanks,
Ulix
Yellow '74
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->elaborate please?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 14 2000, 10:25 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->What kind of track are you desiring?
We could all just show up at S.I.R. and drive under the locked gates
Are you thinking autocross? roadrace? hillclimb?
I have to admit I will need to have at least one X1/9 that is not in pieces before I will be doing anything of this sort, but it sounds like a great idea. Even if we were unable to locate an event we could 'piggyback' our way into, we may be able to arrange something ourselves, as long as it's not too extravagant... -Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Ulix[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->A real race track<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 15 2000, 7:46 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Mac,
yes, something like SIR.
At the autox, I talked to a guy with a Mustang SVO. He had just done this with the Mustang club and was raving about it.
As I said before, an Alfa club guy told me about their track day as well. He mentioned that convertibles needed rollbars for this, but the X1/9 targa bar should suffice I hope. I believe it is stronger than some of those aftermarket "piece of mind" Spider roll bars anyway.
The Mustang guy said that they drove at speed, all one the track, but that no wheel-to-wheel action was allowed. If you come up on someone, the slower car gets flagged to moce over and let you pass.
Ulix
racin' on ma mahnd...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "L";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "f";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Lalo"); // --> </SCRIPT>Lalo <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Done that....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 15 2000, 10:00 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi Ulix-
FIAT America did some joint track time with the Alfa Club at Sears Point a while back. The Alfa Club was invited by the Vintage Racing Group to come on out and play during their lunch time, the Alfa Club in turn invited FA because they needed a minimum number of cars to partake and they couldn't muster up the interest in the Alfa Club alone. Needless to say there were almost more FIATs than Alfas.
Why not rent the track on our own? Because it's obscenely expensive! Many thousands of dollars. So by piggy backing on the Vintage Club guys and using the track while they had lunch we were able to get some track time at a reasonable cost.
It's not a race, but several parade laps. At speed. As mentioned earlier if a faster car came up behind you were flagged to let him by, no wheel to wheel stuff. No one out there wanted to have to pull their car off the tire barriers. But that's not to say that there wasn't any speeding going on. I overheated my A509s on lap 3.
FA drove circles around the Alfas. I had a great battle with a full race Guilietta Sprint. He saw me coming up behind him in my X1/9 on turn 2 and decided that he was going to show this little Fix it Again Tony how it's done. I never fell more than one car length behind his bumper. On the front straight he waved me by.
Having auto-x'd a lot, taught at several driver's schools and having spent many hours 'enjoying' our local backroads, I can tell you that none of that compares to being on a race track. You and your car, mano a mano. On the auto-x course the speed just isn't there, on the backroads a wise man keeps it at 7/10's because of the unknown factors like cows, other cars, bicyclists etc. But on the track, you have all the speed you can handle and no obstacles. Being on the track really gets the adrenaline pumping. Turn 10 is a long flat out right hand sweeper. In my X1/9 I was taking it at around 85 mph. You haven't lived until you corner at 85 mph near the limit and realize that if you lose it, they'll be picking up the pieces for the next 100 yards...
I scared myself a couple of times. Once on the carousel, several times on turn 10, and a couple on the esses. Esses are X1/9 traps, lift at the wrong time and you'll be going backwards in no time.
One thing to note is that street tires are NOT made for track time. This was the first time I ever overheated a set of tires. If you've ever done it you know what I mean. The tires just go away, every corner gets more and more slippery. Before you know it you're sliding all over the place. Also, I never faded my brakes, only slightly coming into turn 11 (hairpin) braking from near 100 mph down to 25-30mph. Driving style has a lot to do with your tendency to fade your brakes. After spending some time on the track I have a lot of respect for guys who take these tracks at twice the speed I did in my little X1/9, balls of steel comes to mind...
Anyway, I hope you can work something out up there to get some track time, perhaps at the Portland racetrack. Another avenue is to see if NASA has a chapter out there, through them you can get track time for around $150. Can't do better than that.
Lalo
http://www.netcom.com/~la_migra
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Ulix[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->That's what I'm talking about!
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 16 2000, 6:20 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Lalo,
thanks for that graphic description, you had me drooling.
I'll have to check around up here for similar happenings.
I must say that am always amazed how much into fast driving you guys at FA are! I have heard of a couple of your events and been on the tour at the Fiat Festival in Monterey. Every other car club tour I have been on has followed the same pattern: the more cars participate, the slower everyone goes.
While the FA tour was no race, EVERYONE got on it, no one was holding back the field, the average speed was high!
Up here, a "spirited drive" refers to a drink after the cruise
Ulix
(too much time spent in british-car clubs)
'67 Sprite
'74 X1/9
http://www.mirafiori.com/~ulix <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I agree - but with a caveat<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 16 2000, 6:43 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Ulix is right, the more cars attend our events, the slower the entire pack seems to get. That always irritates me to some little insignificant degree, because I too would like to put a little foot into it.
I don't mean driving recklessly on public roads. Just to drive with a little more gusto than the commuters that are passing our pack on the highway
I do understand though why it happens. Like the day we went to West Seattle, for example. It's hard to go fast anywhere around there. Plus it is usually just a handful of folks who actually know where the X1/9 inchworm is trying to go. I blame myself for that. In the coming season everyone is getting a course map before we drive, and I will try to map routes that would allow us a little more pedal travel than, oh say - idling in ferry dock traffic!
I am like Ulix. When I see so many Fiats together on the road, it just makes my pedal get heavy! The laws of physics cease to exist around the region of my feet
But I also understand that no one wants to be the one who wrecked their car during a gathering, as well as the fact that police in our area have a ticket-happy way about them. AND don't even get me started about the average commuter's driving skill around here!! Hard to keep a pack of Xs together at speed when you have Suzy Soccer Mom with her 3 kids in the Ford Excursion cutting into the middle of the X pack to take a left from the far right lane. One wrong move & it's X sandwich, man!
I think though that we should definitely resolve this dilemma. Since I personally think there is no way we will be able to keep our entire group of cars together at higher speed on a public road around here (face it, even if everyone was game, some schmuck on his way to work would pull out in front of us and go 28 mph!
So I agree that a good solution would be to start organizing some "closed circuit" events for us. I don't think anyone in this group would have reservations about going fast if we were on a track instead of highway 99. <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "L";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "f";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Lalo"); // --> </SCRIPT>Lalo <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->FIAT America Tour Secrets...(LONG)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 3:16 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Ulix and Mac-
Good observations Ulix. We like to think that FA has touring down to an art. Ulix has experienced it first hand, and that was a SHORT wimpy tour. You should come down for one of our overnight tours, like the one scheduled for later this year. We cover about 200 miles of back country roads each day. Roads even better than those you experienced in Monterey. For those in the Bay Area FA will be having a day tour of the Sonoma area on March 18th. Mark your calendars and make sure your tires are up to the task.
So how many cars have you had on a tour anyway? From what I gather you're talking in the neighborhood of ten cars or less, am I right? How does that slow you down? Heck, that's a small group. I forget the count on the Monterey tour but I think it was closer to 20-30 cars. Recall the exact number Ulix? An average FA tour has in the neighborhood of 20 cars.
Here's some of the things that have worked for FA with regards to our Tours:
1. GOOD INSTRUCTIONS: Every participant gets a map as well as written directions for the tour. These directions are spelled out similar to Pro-Rally instructions. One column has the mileage, the next has the instruction such as left turn on 'X' road. Everyone sets their odometer to zero at the start, and by simply looking at their mileage they know what the next instruction is. Yes, our tours are pre-run a couple of times by the tourmaster prior to the actual tour specifically to map out the mileages and instructions.
Why is this important? This reduces the need to baby-sit and does not hold the group up for the slow guy to stay in visual contact to keep from missing the next turn. Maps alone are not sufficient, they give you no sense of distance. You can see a turn on the map, but knowing that the turn will be at 10.5 miles allows you to put the map down and drive. I can't emphasize enough the need to have good instructions.
2. GET CB RADIOS!!!!!: FA tours strongly encourage it's participants to use a CB for several reasons. Safety is #1. If the tourmaster comes across a tree in the road, an accident, pedestrians, bicyclists, POLICE, etc he can radio back and alert everyone to the hazard. This has saved our asses on many occasions, especially with regards to the local FUZZ. There's nothing worse than flying around a blind corner at speed only to find the group in front of you has come to a complete stop for whatever reason and you have 30 feet to stop from 50 mph. CB radios eliminate this type of safety hazard.
The radios are also used to call out instructions. We realize that if you don't have a passenger to read the instructions off to you it can be hard at times to pull your eyes off the road to read the next instruction. The tourmaster will call out the next turn before you get to it, therefore relieving the necessity for you to be constantly trying to read (think safety). Again, thinking about safety, if anything should go wrong, a blowout, breakdown or god forbid an accident can be quickly relayed to the tourmaster so that he can stop and address the issue.
As mentioned before, FA tours are not sight seeing tours. Some pretty hard driving goes on. So to address the issue of slower non-tour traffic, CB radios to the rescue again. If an SUV gets between the group, the tourmaster uses the CB to call out oncoming traffic. Without the CB it is suicide to try to pass anyone on the windy blind corner roads we frequent because you don't know if the coast is clear or not. Used with caution, the tourmaster lets those stuck behind the SUV know if it is clear or not to pass. In no time the people stuck behind the SUV are able to safely get around it. No drama, no stress, no safety issues.
3. STRUCTURE: There are two key cars in the group, the tourmaster and the tailgunner. The tourmaster is the person who organized and is leading the tour. The tailgunner is the LAST car in the group. In reality there's always a couple of cars that do not have a CB, but the tourmaster and tailgunner WILL ALWAYS have one. It's the tailgunner's responsibility to relay to the tourmaster key information, like when everyone has exited the parking lot, or when the entire group is rolling etc. But beyond that, he is also the safety guy. He alerts if there are any mechanical issues or any other problems and he chases down anyone who took the wrong turn
somewhere and gets them back on track. On the Monterey tour I was the tailgunner. And those that were there know that I was the one that had to go rescue the Alfa that broke down...
4. PEP TALK/RULES: FA tours are always started off with a little pep talk to the participants. Here's the jist of it:
a) THIS IS NOT A RACE. This is a TOUR. Tours do not entail competitive driving. So if you have someone behind you that clearly wants to go faster than you, let 'em by and keep it safe.
b) FA does not condone the breaking of traffic laws. What you do here is your decision, you're all adults and are required to take responsibility for your actions.
c) No one is pressured to speed. You drive at a pace that you feel comfortable with. You will not be shamed, you will not be called a wimp or otherwise hazed for not tearing up your tires. It's O.K.
d) There will be several re-grouping stops along the tour, usually every 15-20 miles, to ensure that everyone stays together. If you don't want to drive 'fast', don't. The group will wait for you at the next re-grouping stop.
e) In short, the goal today is to have fun and enjoy driving your car however you feel most comfortable. Remember that it is no longer fun when we are pulling your FIAT out of a ditch or ravine. Use your head.
The key is to have good instructions, good communication and a reasonable amount of re-grouping stops so that those that want to go fast can go fast and those that want to cruise can cruise without slowing the rest of the group down. Everyone is happy and no one is pressured into driving in a manner that he/she feels is reckless.
We have found that the thing to do if you want to drive spiritedly is to hang in the back of the crowd. You can hang back and let the group pull away and then have fun catching up. I could go on and on about how we structure our tours, but I've already taken up way too much bandwidth here. I hope I at least shed a little light on how you can improve your tours. Send me an e-mail if you want more details, Mac. I can even send you a copy of some of our tour instructions so you can see the way we lay them out.
Happy Touring!
Lalo
VP FIAT America
http://www.netcom.com/~la_migra<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Ulix[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Touring Fiat America style<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 5:32 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks Lalo,
Your tips show how much effort goes into planning your tours and then "running" them.
I feel I need to clarify that most of my experiences that I've had with car club touring have been with the MG and Austin Healey clubs up here, not with SeattleX1/9. With SeaX, we haven't really had a tour on backroads, so I can't say how one would work out. When we do, we'll see what SeaX members are made of
Your tips will come in handy in the future.
Ulix<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mike Mittelstead[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Coupla ways you can get tracktime<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 16 2000, 11:02 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->If Seattle Int'l Raceway is like Portland, there should be several clubs that rent the facility during the season. Most are agreeable to cars outside their marque participating if you are either a member of a club that hosts a trackday (a reciprocity thing), or if you have a connection within the hosting club.
If you can get a schedule from SIR at Kent that identifies who is renting the track, and when, then you could make necessary inquiries directly to the club. Best to attend a meeting and introduce yourself if you don't have a personal connection, so they can size you up. You'll have better luck if you avoid the Porsche and BMW clubs, since they are able to draw enough entrants from within their own ranks.
Be aware that you usually encounter a few wanna-be Marios that think they are going wheel-to-wheel. Unfortunately, I see this way too much. Passing is pretty well limited, so you won't be running doorhandle-to-doorhandle, but you can be forced into running *******-to-bellybutton. This should not be allowed, as it leaves no room for error, yours or the guy in front of you. Normal driver qualification standards for high speed driving in close quarters are bypassed under the guise of "driver training", when in fact there are major players in many clubs whose antics are ignored.
That being the case, I'd suggest attending a driver's school, hosted by a road racing club instead of a marque club. Locally you have either ICSCC (Conference, as it's called), or SCCA. These are much more professional events where you don't have some yahoo crowding you when lap traffic is encountered. Also includes instruction from licensed roadracers that have serious experience. Far better than trackdays, where most folks only have SOP experience. Sheetmetal is occasionally bent at trackdays, never at driver's schools.
Sorry, no NASA in this area, which is too bad. If you want to travel to Thunderhill in NoCal, there are plenty of NASA events there, and that is a far better track than SIR or PIR. I haven't driven that track, but was lucky enough to bum a ride in a killer 300ZX TT on my way to Monterey last summer.
However you chose to do it, you'll get the best woodie of your life. My "first time" was in '75 at PIR, running 130 MPH in my Camaro, even getting passed on the looooong Portland straight, then throwing out the anchor at speed for a 70 MPH turn. Pure adrenalin, but in retrospect, none of us were qualified to be driving like that. MM<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "w";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Steve Hoelscher"); // --> </SCRIPT>Steve Hoelscher <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->A couple of additional notes<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 17 2000, 6:40 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I agree with all of the information given above. MM is right about some yahoos that get away with murder because of who they are/know. Identify those guys quickly and waive them by.
Most importantly you need to understand the circumstances under which you find yourself when running at speed. First of all, 70 mph never seemed so fast as when you are sliding sideways through the grass = So resist the temptation to go flat out early. Allow yourself some time to build speed and learn the track and how the car behaves at speed.
If the brakes or tires overheat and go away, it is likely to happen without much warning and will catch you out. So if you get any hint that the brakes or tires are getting soft, give it up and let them cool. Also, at tracks with particularly nasty corners following long straights, I will check the pedal for pressure about halfway down the straight. (just give it a light push with your left foot) I always did this on the back straight at Road Atlanta.
Some "Mark" clubs are great about other cars attending, but some are not. I once attended a Porsche lapping weekend at Road Atlanta and was promptly 'un-invited' after my 1300 X1/9 ran quicker laps than every 911 there.
Since you will be driving an X, you will quickly find that almost every one will pass you down the straights, then hold you up in the twisties. The easiest thing to do is let them get away from you so you can run the twisties alone and proptly reel them back in. Then let them pull away down the straight and reel them back in again in the twisties. That will PO them quick.
Steve
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + "1";n54_em = n54_em + "9";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Mac"); // --> </SCRIPT>Mac <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I can't listen to this anymore!!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 17 2000, 6:54 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Now we're sunk - there's no way out of arranging something for the coming season. I can't just sit here & listen to this stuff anymore!
So Ulix, shall it be you or I who make "first contact" with S.I.R.? Or, alternatively, P.I.R., or both?? Any other suggestions? Wanna go hit a circle track?
-Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Ulix[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Alfa Club?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 8:19 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Mac,
I've cruised over to their site and checked out their calendar of planned events. It looks promising. I'll email you about the specifics.
Thanks to Lalo, Mike and Steve for the drool on my keyboard.
BTW, Would autocross tire be better or worse than say AVS's in terms of overheating them on a track?
Ulix <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "w";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Steve Hoelscher"); // --> </SCRIPT>Steve Hoelscher <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 135px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->tire choices for track events.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 2:14 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 135px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->First, realize you can overheat any tire if you drive it beyond it's intended performance window. Also, a lot depends on how much tread the tire has. A full tread street tire would tend to "feather" and "chunk" badly if pushed to the limit for more than just a few laps. While, a shaved (or worn) street tire has a shorter, more stable tread block that would be less prone to heat buildup and therefore feathering and chunking.
Any competition tire, be it autocross or road race, is designed to operate at its limit of performance so feathering of the tread is not a problem. Almost any "autocross" tire would work well on an X1/9 for an open track event. The X1/9 is not heavy enough and has good enough balance so as to not overheat the tire. The exception to this would be the Hoosier radial autocrosser. It would probably overheat if driven hard for several laps.
Steve<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 14 2000 at 1:33 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Ulix [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I ran my first autocross of this season yesterday. I had forgotten how much fun it is. I even met a fellow X1/9 racer, Alex. He knows about this site and said he pops in here sometimes.
Autocrossing really shows what a great sportscar an X1/9 is, even 25 years old. I am a novice racer and was running on very worn street rubber that has no stick left, and I was still able to get times comparable to others running late model sportscars, some on race rubber. I am hoping to soon be using my race tires that I bought used from Mark Plaia.
The biggest thrill is not getting fast times, but driving the car at the absolute limit without danger. If you go too fast, you spin and everyone goes "Wow!". That's it.
Driving around Seattle traffic can make me doubt my car and the modifications I have made to it, but one good lap will make me love my car again
Now I am wondering how hard it is to get on a real race track. Are there local track days that I could get into? A member of the Alfa club once told me that they have track days in which Fiat guys sometimes parttake. Does anyone have any info?
Thanks,
Ulix
Yellow '74
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->elaborate please?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 14 2000, 10:25 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->What kind of track are you desiring?
We could all just show up at S.I.R. and drive under the locked gates
Are you thinking autocross? roadrace? hillclimb?
I have to admit I will need to have at least one X1/9 that is not in pieces before I will be doing anything of this sort, but it sounds like a great idea. Even if we were unable to locate an event we could 'piggyback' our way into, we may be able to arrange something ourselves, as long as it's not too extravagant... -Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->A real race track<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 15 2000, 7:46 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Mac,
yes, something like SIR.
At the autox, I talked to a guy with a Mustang SVO. He had just done this with the Mustang club and was raving about it.
As I said before, an Alfa club guy told me about their track day as well. He mentioned that convertibles needed rollbars for this, but the X1/9 targa bar should suffice I hope. I believe it is stronger than some of those aftermarket "piece of mind" Spider roll bars anyway.
The Mustang guy said that they drove at speed, all one the track, but that no wheel-to-wheel action was allowed. If you come up on someone, the slower car gets flagged to moce over and let you pass.
Ulix
racin' on ma mahnd...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Done that....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 15 2000, 10:00 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi Ulix-
FIAT America did some joint track time with the Alfa Club at Sears Point a while back. The Alfa Club was invited by the Vintage Racing Group to come on out and play during their lunch time, the Alfa Club in turn invited FA because they needed a minimum number of cars to partake and they couldn't muster up the interest in the Alfa Club alone. Needless to say there were almost more FIATs than Alfas.
Why not rent the track on our own? Because it's obscenely expensive! Many thousands of dollars. So by piggy backing on the Vintage Club guys and using the track while they had lunch we were able to get some track time at a reasonable cost.
It's not a race, but several parade laps. At speed. As mentioned earlier if a faster car came up behind you were flagged to let him by, no wheel to wheel stuff. No one out there wanted to have to pull their car off the tire barriers. But that's not to say that there wasn't any speeding going on. I overheated my A509s on lap 3.
FA drove circles around the Alfas. I had a great battle with a full race Guilietta Sprint. He saw me coming up behind him in my X1/9 on turn 2 and decided that he was going to show this little Fix it Again Tony how it's done. I never fell more than one car length behind his bumper. On the front straight he waved me by.
Having auto-x'd a lot, taught at several driver's schools and having spent many hours 'enjoying' our local backroads, I can tell you that none of that compares to being on a race track. You and your car, mano a mano. On the auto-x course the speed just isn't there, on the backroads a wise man keeps it at 7/10's because of the unknown factors like cows, other cars, bicyclists etc. But on the track, you have all the speed you can handle and no obstacles. Being on the track really gets the adrenaline pumping. Turn 10 is a long flat out right hand sweeper. In my X1/9 I was taking it at around 85 mph. You haven't lived until you corner at 85 mph near the limit and realize that if you lose it, they'll be picking up the pieces for the next 100 yards...
I scared myself a couple of times. Once on the carousel, several times on turn 10, and a couple on the esses. Esses are X1/9 traps, lift at the wrong time and you'll be going backwards in no time.
One thing to note is that street tires are NOT made for track time. This was the first time I ever overheated a set of tires. If you've ever done it you know what I mean. The tires just go away, every corner gets more and more slippery. Before you know it you're sliding all over the place. Also, I never faded my brakes, only slightly coming into turn 11 (hairpin) braking from near 100 mph down to 25-30mph. Driving style has a lot to do with your tendency to fade your brakes. After spending some time on the track I have a lot of respect for guys who take these tracks at twice the speed I did in my little X1/9, balls of steel comes to mind...
Anyway, I hope you can work something out up there to get some track time, perhaps at the Portland racetrack. Another avenue is to see if NASA has a chapter out there, through them you can get track time for around $150. Can't do better than that.
Lalo
http://www.netcom.com/~la_migra
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->That's what I'm talking about!
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 16 2000, 6:20 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Lalo,
thanks for that graphic description, you had me drooling.
I'll have to check around up here for similar happenings.
I must say that am always amazed how much into fast driving you guys at FA are! I have heard of a couple of your events and been on the tour at the Fiat Festival in Monterey. Every other car club tour I have been on has followed the same pattern: the more cars participate, the slower everyone goes.
While the FA tour was no race, EVERYONE got on it, no one was holding back the field, the average speed was high!
Up here, a "spirited drive" refers to a drink after the cruise
Ulix
(too much time spent in british-car clubs)
'67 Sprite
'74 X1/9
http://www.mirafiori.com/~ulix <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I agree - but with a caveat<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 16 2000, 6:43 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Ulix is right, the more cars attend our events, the slower the entire pack seems to get. That always irritates me to some little insignificant degree, because I too would like to put a little foot into it.
I don't mean driving recklessly on public roads. Just to drive with a little more gusto than the commuters that are passing our pack on the highway
I do understand though why it happens. Like the day we went to West Seattle, for example. It's hard to go fast anywhere around there. Plus it is usually just a handful of folks who actually know where the X1/9 inchworm is trying to go. I blame myself for that. In the coming season everyone is getting a course map before we drive, and I will try to map routes that would allow us a little more pedal travel than, oh say - idling in ferry dock traffic!
I am like Ulix. When I see so many Fiats together on the road, it just makes my pedal get heavy! The laws of physics cease to exist around the region of my feet
But I also understand that no one wants to be the one who wrecked their car during a gathering, as well as the fact that police in our area have a ticket-happy way about them. AND don't even get me started about the average commuter's driving skill around here!! Hard to keep a pack of Xs together at speed when you have Suzy Soccer Mom with her 3 kids in the Ford Excursion cutting into the middle of the X pack to take a left from the far right lane. One wrong move & it's X sandwich, man!
I think though that we should definitely resolve this dilemma. Since I personally think there is no way we will be able to keep our entire group of cars together at higher speed on a public road around here (face it, even if everyone was game, some schmuck on his way to work would pull out in front of us and go 28 mph!
So I agree that a good solution would be to start organizing some "closed circuit" events for us. I don't think anyone in this group would have reservations about going fast if we were on a track instead of highway 99. <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 3:16 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Ulix and Mac-
Good observations Ulix. We like to think that FA has touring down to an art. Ulix has experienced it first hand, and that was a SHORT wimpy tour. You should come down for one of our overnight tours, like the one scheduled for later this year. We cover about 200 miles of back country roads each day. Roads even better than those you experienced in Monterey. For those in the Bay Area FA will be having a day tour of the Sonoma area on March 18th. Mark your calendars and make sure your tires are up to the task.
So how many cars have you had on a tour anyway? From what I gather you're talking in the neighborhood of ten cars or less, am I right? How does that slow you down? Heck, that's a small group. I forget the count on the Monterey tour but I think it was closer to 20-30 cars. Recall the exact number Ulix? An average FA tour has in the neighborhood of 20 cars.
Here's some of the things that have worked for FA with regards to our Tours:
1. GOOD INSTRUCTIONS: Every participant gets a map as well as written directions for the tour. These directions are spelled out similar to Pro-Rally instructions. One column has the mileage, the next has the instruction such as left turn on 'X' road. Everyone sets their odometer to zero at the start, and by simply looking at their mileage they know what the next instruction is. Yes, our tours are pre-run a couple of times by the tourmaster prior to the actual tour specifically to map out the mileages and instructions.
Why is this important? This reduces the need to baby-sit and does not hold the group up for the slow guy to stay in visual contact to keep from missing the next turn. Maps alone are not sufficient, they give you no sense of distance. You can see a turn on the map, but knowing that the turn will be at 10.5 miles allows you to put the map down and drive. I can't emphasize enough the need to have good instructions.
2. GET CB RADIOS!!!!!: FA tours strongly encourage it's participants to use a CB for several reasons. Safety is #1. If the tourmaster comes across a tree in the road, an accident, pedestrians, bicyclists, POLICE, etc he can radio back and alert everyone to the hazard. This has saved our asses on many occasions, especially with regards to the local FUZZ. There's nothing worse than flying around a blind corner at speed only to find the group in front of you has come to a complete stop for whatever reason and you have 30 feet to stop from 50 mph. CB radios eliminate this type of safety hazard.
The radios are also used to call out instructions. We realize that if you don't have a passenger to read the instructions off to you it can be hard at times to pull your eyes off the road to read the next instruction. The tourmaster will call out the next turn before you get to it, therefore relieving the necessity for you to be constantly trying to read (think safety). Again, thinking about safety, if anything should go wrong, a blowout, breakdown or god forbid an accident can be quickly relayed to the tourmaster so that he can stop and address the issue.
As mentioned before, FA tours are not sight seeing tours. Some pretty hard driving goes on. So to address the issue of slower non-tour traffic, CB radios to the rescue again. If an SUV gets between the group, the tourmaster uses the CB to call out oncoming traffic. Without the CB it is suicide to try to pass anyone on the windy blind corner roads we frequent because you don't know if the coast is clear or not. Used with caution, the tourmaster lets those stuck behind the SUV know if it is clear or not to pass. In no time the people stuck behind the SUV are able to safely get around it. No drama, no stress, no safety issues.
3. STRUCTURE: There are two key cars in the group, the tourmaster and the tailgunner. The tourmaster is the person who organized and is leading the tour. The tailgunner is the LAST car in the group. In reality there's always a couple of cars that do not have a CB, but the tourmaster and tailgunner WILL ALWAYS have one. It's the tailgunner's responsibility to relay to the tourmaster key information, like when everyone has exited the parking lot, or when the entire group is rolling etc. But beyond that, he is also the safety guy. He alerts if there are any mechanical issues or any other problems and he chases down anyone who took the wrong turn
somewhere and gets them back on track. On the Monterey tour I was the tailgunner. And those that were there know that I was the one that had to go rescue the Alfa that broke down...
4. PEP TALK/RULES: FA tours are always started off with a little pep talk to the participants. Here's the jist of it:
a) THIS IS NOT A RACE. This is a TOUR. Tours do not entail competitive driving. So if you have someone behind you that clearly wants to go faster than you, let 'em by and keep it safe.
b) FA does not condone the breaking of traffic laws. What you do here is your decision, you're all adults and are required to take responsibility for your actions.
c) No one is pressured to speed. You drive at a pace that you feel comfortable with. You will not be shamed, you will not be called a wimp or otherwise hazed for not tearing up your tires. It's O.K.
d) There will be several re-grouping stops along the tour, usually every 15-20 miles, to ensure that everyone stays together. If you don't want to drive 'fast', don't. The group will wait for you at the next re-grouping stop.
e) In short, the goal today is to have fun and enjoy driving your car however you feel most comfortable. Remember that it is no longer fun when we are pulling your FIAT out of a ditch or ravine. Use your head.
The key is to have good instructions, good communication and a reasonable amount of re-grouping stops so that those that want to go fast can go fast and those that want to cruise can cruise without slowing the rest of the group down. Everyone is happy and no one is pressured into driving in a manner that he/she feels is reckless.
We have found that the thing to do if you want to drive spiritedly is to hang in the back of the crowd. You can hang back and let the group pull away and then have fun catching up. I could go on and on about how we structure our tours, but I've already taken up way too much bandwidth here. I hope I at least shed a little light on how you can improve your tours. Send me an e-mail if you want more details, Mac. I can even send you a copy of some of our tour instructions so you can see the way we lay them out.
Happy Touring!
Lalo
VP FIAT America
http://www.netcom.com/~la_migra<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 5:32 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks Lalo,
Your tips show how much effort goes into planning your tours and then "running" them.
I feel I need to clarify that most of my experiences that I've had with car club touring have been with the MG and Austin Healey clubs up here, not with SeattleX1/9. With SeaX, we haven't really had a tour on backroads, so I can't say how one would work out. When we do, we'll see what SeaX members are made of
Your tips will come in handy in the future.
Ulix<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Coupla ways you can get tracktime<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 16 2000, 11:02 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->If Seattle Int'l Raceway is like Portland, there should be several clubs that rent the facility during the season. Most are agreeable to cars outside their marque participating if you are either a member of a club that hosts a trackday (a reciprocity thing), or if you have a connection within the hosting club.
If you can get a schedule from SIR at Kent that identifies who is renting the track, and when, then you could make necessary inquiries directly to the club. Best to attend a meeting and introduce yourself if you don't have a personal connection, so they can size you up. You'll have better luck if you avoid the Porsche and BMW clubs, since they are able to draw enough entrants from within their own ranks.
Be aware that you usually encounter a few wanna-be Marios that think they are going wheel-to-wheel. Unfortunately, I see this way too much. Passing is pretty well limited, so you won't be running doorhandle-to-doorhandle, but you can be forced into running *******-to-bellybutton. This should not be allowed, as it leaves no room for error, yours or the guy in front of you. Normal driver qualification standards for high speed driving in close quarters are bypassed under the guise of "driver training", when in fact there are major players in many clubs whose antics are ignored.
That being the case, I'd suggest attending a driver's school, hosted by a road racing club instead of a marque club. Locally you have either ICSCC (Conference, as it's called), or SCCA. These are much more professional events where you don't have some yahoo crowding you when lap traffic is encountered. Also includes instruction from licensed roadracers that have serious experience. Far better than trackdays, where most folks only have SOP experience. Sheetmetal is occasionally bent at trackdays, never at driver's schools.
Sorry, no NASA in this area, which is too bad. If you want to travel to Thunderhill in NoCal, there are plenty of NASA events there, and that is a far better track than SIR or PIR. I haven't driven that track, but was lucky enough to bum a ride in a killer 300ZX TT on my way to Monterey last summer.
However you chose to do it, you'll get the best woodie of your life. My "first time" was in '75 at PIR, running 130 MPH in my Camaro, even getting passed on the looooong Portland straight, then throwing out the anchor at speed for a 70 MPH turn. Pure adrenalin, but in retrospect, none of us were qualified to be driving like that. MM<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->A couple of additional notes<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 17 2000, 6:40 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 90px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I agree with all of the information given above. MM is right about some yahoos that get away with murder because of who they are/know. Identify those guys quickly and waive them by.
Most importantly you need to understand the circumstances under which you find yourself when running at speed. First of all, 70 mph never seemed so fast as when you are sliding sideways through the grass =
So resist the temptation to go flat out early. Allow yourself some time to build speed and learn the track and how the car behaves at speed.If the brakes or tires overheat and go away, it is likely to happen without much warning and will catch you out. So if you get any hint that the brakes or tires are getting soft, give it up and let them cool. Also, at tracks with particularly nasty corners following long straights, I will check the pedal for pressure about halfway down the straight. (just give it a light push with your left foot) I always did this on the back straight at Road Atlanta.
Some "Mark" clubs are great about other cars attending, but some are not. I once attended a Porsche lapping weekend at Road Atlanta and was promptly 'un-invited' after my 1300 X1/9 ran quicker laps than every 911 there.
Since you will be driving an X, you will quickly find that almost every one will pass you down the straights, then hold you up in the twisties. The easiest thing to do is let them get away from you so you can run the twisties alone and proptly reel them back in. Then let them pull away down the straight and reel them back in again in the twisties. That will PO them quick.
Steve
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I can't listen to this anymore!!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 17 2000, 6:54 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 105px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Now we're sunk - there's no way out of arranging something for the coming season. I can't just sit here & listen to this stuff anymore!
So Ulix, shall it be you or I who make "first contact" with S.I.R.? Or, alternatively, P.I.R., or both?? Any other suggestions? Wanna go hit a circle track?
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 8:19 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 120px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Mac,
I've cruised over to their site and checked out their calendar of planned events. It looks promising. I'll email you about the specifics.
Thanks to Lalo, Mike and Steve for the drool on my keyboard.
BTW, Would autocross tire be better or worse than say AVS's in terms of overheating them on a track?
Ulix <!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 135px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->tire choices for track events.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 18 2000, 2:14 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 135px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->First, realize you can overheat any tire if you drive it beyond it's intended performance window. Also, a lot depends on how much tread the tire has. A full tread street tire would tend to "feather" and "chunk" badly if pushed to the limit for more than just a few laps. While, a shaved (or worn) street tire has a shorter, more stable tread block that would be less prone to heat buildup and therefore feathering and chunking.
Any competition tire, be it autocross or road race, is designed to operate at its limit of performance so feathering of the tread is not a problem. Almost any "autocross" tire would work well on an X1/9 for an open track event. The X1/9 is not heavy enough and has good enough balance so as to not overheat the tire. The exception to this would be the Hoosier radial autocrosser. It would probably overheat if driven hard for several laps.
Steve<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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