Brake upgrade
- Thread starter dburdick
- Start date
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
Kind of...
I have a slow, back burner project to replace the entire front suspension/brakes with a MK1 VW Rabbit setup.
This will give larger vented rotors, replaceable ball joints, stut inserts you can actually find, a common wheel bolt pattern, etc.
Pete
I have a slow, back burner project to replace the entire front suspension/brakes with a MK1 VW Rabbit setup.
This will give larger vented rotors, replaceable ball joints, stut inserts you can actually find, a common wheel bolt pattern, etc.
Pete
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
Well, that's pretty much what the Whoa Brakes do
If you are hoping for a solution that does not involve fabrication, I don't think you are going to happen onto another car that has the same rotor offset, piston size and caliper bracket mounting points. The closest you will probably get to that is Uno Turbo brakes from Europe.
Vicks is also working on an improved X1/9 brake set-up, which I assume will also fit the Scorpion.
Pete
If you are hoping for a solution that does not involve fabrication, I don't think you are going to happen onto another car that has the same rotor offset, piston size and caliper bracket mounting points. The closest you will probably get to that is Uno Turbo brakes from Europe.
Vicks is also working on an improved X1/9 brake set-up, which I assume will also fit the Scorpion.
Pete
fiatmonkey
Tim Hoover
WHOA kit is a decent option with immediate benefit. I had started the PBS double brake cylinder mod but stopped as I just didn't have enough time to spend on it. The idea is to replace the dual cylinder with 2 independent ones for front/back with an adjustable brake bias. The units are mounted in the frunk.
We did this on our Mazda Miata turbo race car with great success (for stopping a race car that goes pretty fast!)
I got as far as building the brackets and the actuator arm from the brake pedal to the cylinders.
BEEK
True Classic
pad swept area, cooling and piston size all make a difference, but changing just one, will not help much. you have to keep master cylinder size in account when changing calipers as the amount of fluid displaced will change, causing a longer stroke or a too short stroke, causing too easy of a pedal or too hard to stop
mg: $800 sounds like a cheap way to save your life - certainly cheaper than a life insurance annual premium, but anyway there is good news that won't cost you a fortune....Standard X1/9 brakes are 100% fine for extremely fast road use, even light track use.
When you start going really fast on the track you will find the front alloy calipers "spread" which wears the pads slightly tapered and gives a spongy pedal (still stops well though). I upgraded to UnoT fronts to fix that problem. I know some have used early S1 cast iron calipers which are more rigid to do the same thing for less $.
I have NEVER, EVER had any brake fade on an X1/9 (on road or track) and the brake test machine for registration shows at least -1.1g. Thats PLENTY of stopping power! The key to stopping better in an X1/9 is to shift some weight FORWARD (or braking effort rearwards) to stop the fronts prematurely locking - and having great pads. The Pagid Fast Road pads are my personal favourite but they are hard to source now.
Edit:- just realised this is in the Scorpion area - As I believe the systems are the same the comments are still relevant.
fiatmonkey
Tim Hoover
This is exactly why I had started my mod. I did the WHOA kit first but the performance master cylinder upgrade is definitely going to happen. Just a matter of when.
To be fair, there are others who had the caliper/disc upgrade with better results. For me it might also be that my stock master is just "tired" and in need of work.
Mark
FIATFREAK
I ditched my Whoas in favor of these from Classic Ricambi:
Just a single piston, but they are so much better in terms of pedal effort and modulation compared to the Whoas; IMHO. All factory Fiat parts too. And the veined rotors are a big improvement in terms of cooling. DJ Richards ended the business, but may have some parts still. In fact, I recently bought a set of spare rotors and pads, as I have these same brakes on my '69 Spider:
BTW, these are both with larger rotors that require atleast 14" wheels, but there was a version available for 13" wheels.
Here's a set I made myself using Lancia Integrale rotors and Wilwood calipers:
These rotors are even larger and require atleast 15" wheels.
Just a single piston, but they are so much better in terms of pedal effort and modulation compared to the Whoas; IMHO. All factory Fiat parts too. And the veined rotors are a big improvement in terms of cooling. DJ Richards ended the business, but may have some parts still. In fact, I recently bought a set of spare rotors and pads, as I have these same brakes on my '69 Spider:
BTW, these are both with larger rotors that require atleast 14" wheels, but there was a version available for 13" wheels.
Here's a set I made myself using Lancia Integrale rotors and Wilwood calipers:
These rotors are even larger and require atleast 15" wheels.
Last edited:
Why?
With new pads, rotors, lines and good calipers you will have no problem stopping the car, or even locking them up. Not sure what there is to improve...:huh:
With new pads, rotors, lines and good calipers you will have no problem stopping the car, or even locking them up. Not sure what there is to improve...:huh:
fiatmonkey
Tim Hoover
Guys - I screwed up. I also didn't realize this was the x 1/20 forum section. My custom brakes are for my X 1/9 so...
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
I'm not sure how you screwed up...
The front braking hardware itself (rotors, pads, calipers, caliper brackets, etc) is the same as the X1/9. So it's definitely applicable.
One difference is that the Scorp uses a vacuum accumulator to provide power front brakes. Sadly, the last accumulator died in the 70's and most guys have bypassed them by now, making the braking systems fairly identical. OK I'm joking about all the accumulators dying, there may be a few out there working still, but everyone I talk to has gotten rid of theirs.
Pete
The front braking hardware itself (rotors, pads, calipers, caliper brackets, etc) is the same as the X1/9. So it's definitely applicable.
One difference is that the Scorp uses a vacuum accumulator to provide power front brakes. Sadly, the last accumulator died in the 70's and most guys have bypassed them by now, making the braking systems fairly identical. OK I'm joking about all the accumulators dying, there may be a few out there working still, but everyone I talk to has gotten rid of theirs.
Pete
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
I wasn't sure either...
I have the booster bypass and the PBS brake upgrade. As you say, very high pedal effort. A dog ran out in front of my car last summer and I found out I could lock them, in a panic situation.
They say the best braking is had just before lockup, so maybe that's a good way to have the brake system set up - very hard to lock, but not impossible.
Pete
I have the booster bypass and the PBS brake upgrade. As you say, very high pedal effort. A dog ran out in front of my car last summer and I found out I could lock them, in a panic situation.
They say the best braking is had just before lockup, so maybe that's a good way to have the brake system set up - very hard to lock, but not impossible.
Pete
BEEK
True Classic
the early 124 sedans used a 3/4" master cylinder , no booster and the same calipers as the scorpion , except the scorpions rears are a small bit larger. but the brake ballance was good there. so i would see no problems using no booster on the scorpion.
the x1/9 uses the same size master cylinder and the same calipers ft and a slightly larger rear. works fine there too.
the x1/9 uses the same size master cylinder and the same calipers ft and a slightly larger rear. works fine there too.
dburdick
doug b
All true, but the scorp uses the S1 pedal box, which was meant to be used with a booster. Lancia deleted the booster for the S2 montecarlo and revised the pedal box accordingly.