Budget hi comp high(er) hp motor build

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piccole ma cattive
Hey folks, need a little advise. I'm looking to build a hi comp motor for AutoX and possibly some bigger events. Right now I have 2 1500 long blocks and plan on building them up the same. I also have 2 Yugo 1100 heads, which should bump up my compression.

My question is: What cam should I use, and if needed, what pistons? I know this slightly depends on what carbs. Lets say dual DCOE 40's. I'm on the fence about getting the big valves just yet, as like I said, this is budgeted. If needed, it can be done at a later time. Also, the engine shop I use offers o-ringing, should I? I know its a great feature, but I'm not looking at a ton of hp. Maybe 100-110hp.
 
Hey folks, need a little advise. I'm looking to build a hi comp motor for AutoX and possibly some bigger events. Right now I have 2 1500 long blocks and plan on building them up the same. I also have 2 Yugo 1100 heads, which should bump up my compression.

My question is: What cam should I use, and if needed, what pistons? I know this slightly depends on what carbs. Lets say dual DCOE 40's. I'm on the fence about getting the big valves just yet, as like I said, this is budgeted. If needed, it can be done at a later time. Also, the engine shop I use offers o-ringing, should I? I know its a great feature, but I'm not looking at a ton of hp. Maybe 100-110hp.

Don't bother building a high performance motor without big valves, so put your project on hold & start saving!
 
Not sure what RPM range you'd be using for your application, but:
I did something similar to my '85 1500 F.I. back in March '02 as an experiment. I bought a Yugo 1100cc head (really small combustion chambers) If I recall, the intake valves are the same size, but the exhaust are smaller. I ported the runners; opening them up larger than the stock 1500 head. I spent a lot of time deshrouding the valves and reworking the area beneath the valve. I had the cam reground by Elgin Cams to their 66-15 profile: http://www.elgincams.com/c-fia.html. This of course meant milling the cam box and using an adjustable pulley. I balanced the stock bottom end, lightened the flywheel and added an IAS header with custom exhaust. I had to disconnect the vacuum advance and run premium fuel too.

This engine makes impressive torque! Night and day difference! Due to the cam's short duration, and I'm sure not having bigger valves, the top end over 6500 rpm isn't as impressive as the mid range. But for a street car, it was a total success.

I have since changed to a FAZA 35/75, but I think I prefer the Elgin 66-15. I gave up a lot of torque for more top end.
 
Don't bother building a high performance motor without big valves, so put your project on hold & start saving!

Sorry Chris I have to disagree with you. The title of the post was >budget< performance motor. A 33% increase in power and torque (100HP) can be done all day long with stock valves. We have built many 100HP street motors and this summer we achieved nearly 110 AT THE WHEELS on a race motor with a bone stock head and valves, not milled, ported or polished. Sure there were are a lot of other tricks thrown at it, but I disagree with the statement that stock valves are the main limiting factor to these engines.

With a few tweaks and some attention to detail you can get a reliable 100 crank HP out of your engine without the need for a wild-duration cam, or go the big valve route.

No need for O-ringing. If your block and head surfaces are straight with the correct mirror surfacing, you will not have head-gasket issues.

Building the engine with disparate parts is full of tradeoffs. Here's a few you'll need to consider:

1. Yugo head on the 1500 block will increase compression nicely and it's a bolt-on with no cam timing issues, but the combustion chamber design and tiny ports take you two steps forward and one step back.

You say "high comp", and ask about pistons. A wedge dome will up compression but is: A: pricey B: interferes with combustion and C: is usually NOT compatible with a Yugo combustion chamber without modifications . Again two steps forward one step back. If you can score a set of wedge-dome pistons at a good price, go for it. However, a stock piston can work fine too.

If working with a stock piston, mill a 1500 head -.065 to remove the ring, mill the block so that .010 piston pop-up is achieved, and mill the cambox -.045 with a regrind 40/80 cam 10.5-11mm of lift is fine. This gets you the compression bump you're looking for, and this combination will set you at almost exactly 3-4 degrees timing advance, just right for the engine, allow you to use thin shims (3.4 - 4.0 range depending on valve cut). The only compromise you'll have to make is fitting a 1300 tension bearing instead of the stock 1500. On the milling, you'll probably be doing a mill on all of these surfaces anyways to get things straight and leak-free, so there's no extra $$ here.

2. A good porting job helps mitigate the benefit of big valves. I believe the biggest gains to be had are in the valve pocket area where it makes the 90 degree turn from runner to pocket. It is the most restrictive area of the entire runner area. Remove a valve and stick your thumb down the valve throat into the runner and you'll see what I mean. Look closely and you'll see all sorts of casting flash and rudimentary grinding marks from a quick clean-up of the head blank at the factory. Read Steve C's posts on head prep, they are a good guide. Watch a documentary on Ferrari engine building process and you'll also get a good appreciation at what attention to detail in the ports and valve pockets will do for cylinder head performance. 5 minutes were spent on each Fiat head in Torino, a day or more spent on each head in Maranello. No $$ here (except for a couple of carbide burrs, sanding drums and scotchbrite wheels) and some sweat equity.

3. A good 3 or 5 angle valve cut is required with narrow table on the valve face also results in a larger effective valve diameter. There are some tricks there to get it right. Invest in the correct valve springs while you're there. A local speed shop should be able to get the work done for you, and your valves/seats need to be prepped anyways. Isky springs work great, street or track.

4. A lightened steel flywheel really helps the initial throttle response, a relatively inexpensive component.

5. A long-tube header is great if you can afford it. If not, a 74-style 4-2 manifold helps. Here's a tip: Yugo and Strada cars also came with 4-2 style manifolds, but not as elegant (some extra EGR ports that need to be filled) but cheap.

6. DCOEs are the most efficient carbs you will get for these motors, but be prepared to spend dyno money on jetting. Correct jetting will make all the difference in the world. Spending time getting this right will net 10%+ gains..

7. 2 or 2 .25" exhaust helps a lot.

8. Total loss electrical system (eliminate the alternator with an idler pulley).

Good luck,

-M
 
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Mike... I think it was ME that said...

... not too long ago... to ship your motor to Matt and let him build it... complete with dyno sheets when it comes back to ya.

MARK MY WORDS... and it'll probably be less expensive (and less frustrating) in long run.

Remember to ask him for your senior citizen's discount... OH, wait a minute, yur not old... too bad...

Chris offers up an entirely different perspective... I'd love to see these two on track! I bet their methods are as different as East is from the West, or even the Mid-West for matter!
 
Thanks Mark, Matt, Chris and even Tony...

But nobody has yet to ask me what this is going to go in...

Here's a hint

retro_rocket_ice_pop_photosculpture-p1532205914952381603s98_400.jpg

:evil grin:
 
If working with a stock piston, mill a 1500 head -.065 to remove the ring, mill the block so that .010 piston pop-up is achieved, and mill the cambox -.045 with a regrind 40/80 cam 10.5-11mm of lift is fine. This gets you the compression bump you're looking for, and this combination will set you at almost exactly 3-4 degrees timing advance, just right for the engine

Hi Matt,

doesn't milling RETARD timing?
Your post sounds like you are implying that the combined effect of the milling will advance timing.
Or does it result in 3-4° advance when restting the T-belt by one tooth?
 
Budget can mean so many things....

I would agree with most that Matt had to say - apart from the DCOE bit (but that would be a thread hijack) - :)

A single carb engine can offer a lot of the Hp /Torque at a fraction of the cost of twin carbs... a single 36 or 40DCNF carb suits a mild 1500 engine to a tee and is much easier (certainly for a beginner/novice) to set up than twin carbs. The single DCNF manifolds are a little harder to find, but I'm sure Matt could hunt one down for you.

A euro spec head and 1300 euro style pistons will yeild the highest static CR numbers that you can safely get on a budget - using cast pistons - and will have a broad spread of torque and useable power all the way to 7500/8000k... which the stock bottom end will safely handle if it's assembled with due care and attention.

Using the Yugo small chamber head will shroud the inlet valve, the combustion chamber wall is so close the the valve head and restricts its flow capability -and hence the engines useable revs- which will run out of puff at 5500/6000. It will have good low down and mid range puch due to the high static CR achieved, but as noted by Matt, it's a compromise that is very much one step forward for two steps back.

They are probably a good starting point to modify the chamber and port for more flow, but that's a lot of work.

A euro spec 1500 head has larger ports than most, and with minimal work can yield a documented 22 extra rwhp. The same vehicle, on the same dyno, with the modifications being only to the cylinder head - and still using standard valve sizes and no increase in static compression - (ie just valve mods, chamber mods, valve seat mods, very light smooth out of ports) results in a noticeable increase from the euro specs 62 rear wheel hp to a much peppier 84 rear wheel HP.

if you couple a cylinder head prepared as above, with an increased compression ratio (by using 1300 small valve relief pistons in a 1500), a longer duration cam, a free flowing exhaust system (but still using the stock euro style intake and exhaust manifolding) with a 34dmtr21 carburettor and 2.25 inch muffler and pipes, a 1500 will net close to 100RWHP.

Speak to Matt, I'm sure he will be able to help you build a strong reliable engine along these guidelines...and for a reasonable price too. .. as it always works out cheaper to do it right first time around.

SteveC
 
Step 1...

Looks like I'm getting Carl's dual DCNF's!

Step 2 will be cam, whats the bast autoX-race cam for a dual DCNF 1500? I've been perusing Matt's site and found a couple of interesting Alquati cams. One's even experimental. Matt, will that work?
 
Looks like I'm getting Carl's dual DCNF's!

Step 2 will be cam, whats the bast autoX-race cam for a dual DCNF 1500? I've been perusing Matt's site and found a couple of interesting Alquati cams. One's even experimental. Matt, will that work?


Just a quick update. step 2 ended up being 12.5:1 pistons ;)

Matt is spec'ing out a cam and head for me. Next is tear down one of the 1500 blocks and get it to the machine shop for a general overhaul. Which leads me to...

anything special I should have them do? polish the crank? Knife edge? etc...
 
Not sure what RPM range you'd be using for your application, but:
I did something similar to my '85 1500 F.I. back in March '02 as an experiment. I bought a Yugo 1100cc head (really small combustion chambers) If I recall, the intake valves are the same size, but the exhaust are smaller. I ported the runners; opening them up larger than the stock 1500 head. I spent a lot of time deshrouding the valves and reworking the area beneath the valve. I had the cam reground by Elgin Cams to their 66-15 profile: http://www.elgincams.com/c-fia.html. This of course meant milling the cam box and using an adjustable pulley. I balanced the stock bottom end, lightened the flywheel and added an IAS header with custom exhaust. I had to disconnect the vacuum advance and run premium fuel too.

This engine makes impressive torque! Night and day difference! Due to the cam's short duration, and I'm sure not having bigger valves, the top end over 6500 rpm isn't as impressive as the mid range. But for a street car, it was a total success.

I have since changed to a FAZA 35/75, but I think I prefer the Elgin 66-15. I gave up a lot of torque for more top end.

Not to hijack this thread, but this type of build is what we're looking to do with our project. I called Elgin today and he was very helpful, I'll probably send him a cam to grind as I've been looking around briefly and don't see many B3 PBS regrinds floating about.

Do you recommend Elgin?
 
Depends on your objectives...

The way to make the most power is to maximize the operating rpm. To get this up to 10K RPM or so requires the right cam timing, head porting, and a lot of money for lightweight valves. If you go to this extreme, you want to get very strong, yet lightweight rods, and you want to maintain a lot of counterweight on your crankshaft (so no knife-edging).

Since you are looking for a budget motor, maybe you are looking for a lower horsepower, higher torque motor. If that's the direction, you need to factor this into your cam choice. High RPM is not an objective, and porting and valvetrain weight are less important. You might benefit from a very lightweight crankshaft with extreme knife-edging.

My advice is to find someone who has a motor that has been successful in the kind of racing you intend to do, and use that as a baseline. I think you will find the baseline motor for autocross is quite a bit different than for road racing.

Paul
 
Just want to thank Matt and Thomas at Midwest for helping me with my soon to be new to me cylinderhead. Once it arrives, I'll dig into the motor and put the pistons, dual webers and hot head in!
 
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