Bunch of newbie questions

Discussion in 'Discussion Forum' started by toffee, Oct 31, 2018.

  1. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
  2. Eugene Harvey

    Eugene Harvey Daily Driver

    Location:
    Auckland, NZ
    Then the X1/9 is just the car for you, as it's not exactly rapid, but sitting 6 inches above the bitumen you get the impression you're going a lot faster than you are. The X1/9 is fun to drive, very much the go-cart experience, and you do need to drive it hard as it revels at 3500rpm + and hates low revs. It's a buzzie little engine, and handling is direct, BUT don't skimp on the tyres! The X1/9 does handle exactly like a go-cart and will grip to the point of letting go, and it does. Found out the hard way when I drove my 1980 X1/9 hard on a long trip and managed to separate the belt from the rubber in the factory pirelli's on the rear and felt like the wheels were about to fall off at 50+mph. Being young and poor at the time, replaced the rears with a cheaper alternative, and the next time driving up a favourite twisty road in the dry, as I always did, the rear let go in disasterous fashion!
     
    Dr.Jeff likes this.
  3. Eugene Harvey

    Eugene Harvey Daily Driver

    Location:
    Auckland, NZ
    Ah, one last thing if you're looking to drive your X1/9 hard through twisty roads, the layout of the engine is such that if you have a long sweeping corner (can't remember left or right) and you go at it hard, you will most likely lose oil pressure as all the oil rushes to the other side of the sump. Was having fun at a Fiat Track day (back in my first 1980 X1/9) and whenever I went round the sweeping left hander (I thing it was left), the oil gauge would plummet and the red warning light would come on, then you'd hit the straight, and all the oil would level out again and back to normal.
    Regular track day racers in X1/9's will sometimes over fill the oil for the day then drain the excess out after. Bit risky though, as X1/9's are also notorious head gasket blowers!
    As for the tyres, if you run a standard 1500 engine, a good set of the factory recommendation of 165/70 R13's is recommended. A full size spare will fit in the well, and will keep handling nimble and direct. There is not a lot of power to warrant wider tyres, as well as being mid engined, and also NO POWER steering. There aren't many options, I chose the Yokohama A-Drive which grip well and aren't too noisy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  4. toffee

    toffee Low Mileage

    This is the engine that I fancy: Ford Ecoboost 1.0l 3 cylinder. Of course at this moment, just thinking out loud.

    Pros:
    1. Very light weight, the total engine, with all ancillaries, weighs only about 215 lbs.
    2. Compact, about the size of a letter or A4 paper.
    3. There are two versions: Fox 1.0 litre 125hp and 145 lb/ft, or Dragon 1.5 litre (150-200hp), 90% of that torque you get from 1350 - 5375 RPM, great for hill climbing up Hwy 74.
    4. Better weight distribution, the Fox and 5 speed will likely be 75lbs or so lighter than X's 360lbs?
    5. With my limited skill and aging reflex, I think the Fox will do. Although Dragon could be lighter still being all alloy instead of iron block in Fox. I am not sure of wider tires would be needed for Dragon's 150-200hps, I would prefer not to widen the X1/9, I just love the original shape and proportions.
    Cons:
    1. Tall engine, may not fit.
    2. Lots of work and seemingly not that much of gain in power, especially in comparison to the Honda K conversions.
    3. Kind of odd to reduce cylinder, to lots of folks anyways.
    4. Bimmer makes a 3 cylinder for Minis, which may be better choice, but couldn't find much info on that one.
    5. Direct injection, but I am using it as a weekend car, not going to worry about the rumored deposit and cleaning issues.
    https://classicmotorsports.com/forum/grm/ecoboost-10-engine-dimensions/125620/page1/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine
    https://jalopnik.com/why-fords-tiny-1-liter-3-cylinder-is-the-future-of-ga-1543662936


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  5. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    You missed one con; cost.
     
  6. dllubin

    dllubin True Classic

    These have been out for a few years. What do you suppose they go for from a salvage yard? If they are as small as they look in the picture, I wonder if you could squeeze in two?
     
  7. toffee

    toffee Low Mileage

    True, I am taking the approach that the engine tranny will come out of a fiesta, should be reasonable?? Conversion cost would be high since it hasn't been done before and no off the shelf kits.

    The 215lbs with ancillaries and 90% of 145lb/ft available from 1350-5375 rpm are tempting. although for the same money one could get the Honda K conversion for more power, just sayin'
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  8. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
    I've been looking at the 2.0 ecoboost for a play car, the 1.6 I think will fit without cutting but I haven't got serious about it yet. The 1.0 is a cool little engine, is the Dragon available in the states in a car? Ford motorsports sells the standalone ECU's for the 1.0 and 2.0 last time I looked but not for the 1.6. I think they will for the 2.3 as well but it wasn't available last time I looked. with the ecu being available that takes a huge amount of work out of the project.
     
    Dan Sarandrea (Phila) likes this.
  9. toffee

    toffee Low Mileage

    These are the cars equipped with Dragon, the 200PS version almost generate as much power as the Honda K, but in a smaller and lighter package.

    150 PS (110 kW; 150 hp)
    2018–present Ford Focus

    182 PS (134 kW; 180 hp)
    2018–present Ford Focus

    200 PS (150 kW; 200 hp)
    2018–present Ford Fiesta ST

    Fiesta ST (2018-present)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Ford Fiesta ST
    On February 24, 2017, the seventh generation derived Fiesta ST was announced. It features an all-new 200 PS 3-cylinder 1.5-litre Ecoboost engine with turbocharger and cylinder deactivation technology.

    On March 12, 2018, Ford announced that a Quaife Limited-Slip Differential would be offered as an option for the first time on the Fiesta ST.

    The Fiesta ST was released on May 7, 2018.[93] Despite being heavier than the previous ST model, the new ST can go from a standstill to 62 mph (100 km/h) in 6.5 seconds. Power and torque have been increased to 197 bhp (200 PS) and 290 N⋅m (210 lb⋅ft) respectively, which match the figures of the limited edition Fiesta ST200 of the previous generation. From launch, it is available in either a three-door or five-door body style, and comes standard with a six speed manual gearbox, with no option of an automatic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fiesta#Sixth_generation_(2009–2019)
    Fiesta weights about 1,113–1,207 kg (2,454–2,661 lb), Dragon in X1/9 would be a bit faster, or in my case ..... too fast for my skill and reflexes.
     
  10. Dan Sarandrea (Phila)

    Dan Sarandrea (Phila) Waitin' On Parts...

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    This IS the elephant in the room. If the manufacturer does not provide a stand-alone installation solution, or if the aftermarket does not see a market potential (as it does with the Honda Bs and Ks) to quote Brother Otter, "it could take years and cost millions of lives" to get the engine running as well as it did in the original car.
     
  11. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    I had a Fiesta rental in Europe, standard model with small engine and automatic (all that was available). And it drove great. Engine reved high and it was quite quick.

    The aftermarket supports them rather well. Look at Cobb Tuning for ECU tuning. I'm not certain what they have specifically but they are one of the companies that support these cars. The UK guys use lots of modern Ford engines in all sorts of swaps. So they might have additional resources as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  12. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
    It looks like Ford motorsports is only offering the engine management for the 2.3 now, Summit racing has it, I'm going to try to contact them tomorrow and see whats up. They offer the 2.0 as a crate engine and the engine management for the 2.3 without the crate engine to go with it.... Guess I'll have to go with the 2.3 instead, bummer lol.
     
  13. toffee

    toffee Low Mileage

    I won't do it but one can also be very extreme and get a Fiat two cylinder job, it generates 105hp and 107 lb-ft at 2,000rpm, probably weights like 185lbs? It could potentially be over 100 lbs lighter than the 1.5 litre's 365lbs (engine+tranny). Fiat 500 weights around 865–980 kg (1,907–2,161 lb), with the twin-air, 0-100km/h in 11.4 sec. According to youtube reviews, it made nice sound and not too slow.

    So with Ford 3 banger's 125hp and 145 lb-ft in a X1/9, it probably will be an upper 7sec 0-60 car? Just slow enough to be pushed hard without getting into trouble. Like going from I-280 to Skyline Blvd. via Woodside village, then return on Page Mill road in LAH, or my favorite Hwy 74.

    https://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/10/20131021-fiat.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  14. dllubin

    dllubin True Classic

    I think you are referring to Hwy 84. If you have not been on it for a while, it looks quite a bit different than it did a couple of years ago thanks to the January-February 2017 storms. They just finished repairs a few months ago, and over the last several weeks CALFire has had crews doing some serious tree and brush trimming which has really opened up the views in some places.
     
  15. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Not that this is any better of approach, but to gain a little torque/HP bump from the stock X engine I'm working on a low boost turbo set-up. Should get it into the same range of power/performance you are describing for those 3-cyl engine swaps. But without the swap. So far it is coming together fairly well without as much expense as I anticipated (certainly WAY less than a engine swap). Too soon to report any final figures - both in terms of power and cost. But I thought it was a simpler means to making the X more enjoyable. For me it has been more of a learning process because I've not built a turbo/aftermarket ECU engine before. But the actual build has been quite simple - pretty much bolt on components.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  16. toffee

    toffee Low Mileage

    Wow, I would have to make a trip to see that! Breakfast at Buck's, up 84 then return home via Page Mill and Moody was my favorite drive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    dllubin likes this.
  17. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
    According to Ford motorsports the only ecoboost control pack they will be offering is the 2.3, they dropped the 2.0 in favor of the 2.3, He said that they literally only have 2 of the 2.0 crate motors left and that is the end of them. The 2.3 should be available soon. The support for the 1.0 and the rest of the EB line isn't going to happen, just not enough market for it to pay for the development.

    This makes it rough to use a 1.0 as you will have to either try and get the factory ecu working or develop an aftermarket ecu for it. Hopefully the 1.0 will get put into a racing series somewhere and that would be a source for engine management. There was talk that the Formula Ford series was going to use it but I don't think it happened.
     
  18. Dan Sarandrea (Phila)

    Dan Sarandrea (Phila) Waitin' On Parts...

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    My sister-in-law recently got a new Mustang with the 2.3 EcoBoost, it is rated at 310HP and 350TQ at 5,500RPM with 93 octane fuel. That's a lot from 137 cubic inches!
     
  19. No guys - no elephant here.......There IS plenty of aftermarket support for the 1.0 Ecoboost engine. It is used extensively in rallying (Fiesta R2 ) and racing over on the other side of the pond. There are plenty of aftermarket stand alone ECUs available off the shelf. For example:
    https://www.performancemazda.co.uk/ford-fiesta-1-0-ecoboost-manegement-kit.html

    Note they offer stand alone solutions for "kit cars" and such. Lots more out there - just google it.

    Lots of potential for this engine. And lots to like as a swap into an X. Being a 3 banger it is really short - a major advantage to fit into the X's tiny engine bay. And despite it's iron block it is pretty light. Yeah - it looks pretty tall, but so is the stock X engine. Would it fit fairly easily ? I dunno. Someone should try it. But.....there is a better solution.........
     
  20. toffee

    toffee Low Mileage

    I am intrigued by the 3 bangers, but not married to them. If I would to bite for an engine swap, I aim for a very light weight engine that gives 130hps, and preferably 150+ lb/ft. Honda K has been fantastic, 200hp+ but it also weights over 400 lbs. The Ford 3 banger? Only 215lbs, may be 300 with tranny. So compare to the factory 1.5l, K conversion potentially adds 40lbs to the rear of X, while Fox reduces appr. 60lbs; Dragon probably over 70lbs saving yet produce almost as much power as K.

    http://www.superstreetonline.com/ho...vetrain/1306-honda-engine-drivetrain-weights/
     

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