Bunch of newbie questions

This recent preoccupation with chain driven cam systems is quite humorous. I see it mainly on the Car Lounge and the Vortex in general.

A belt is less likely during its service life to jump time and stick valves through piston heads, particularly on an engine that is not an interference engine to start with. Even if it did manage to stove one through a piston on a Fiat engine, at most if you redid everything you would be at 4K to make a completely new engine.

Nearly every chain driven cam system on modern cars has had significant issues with either the chain, the tensioners or the related systems. Particularly on high performance engines. All of them fail to complete their service life without some part of the system failing and needing further maintenance procedures. This idea that chain driven unit will save you from significant maintenance over time is well and truly a misnomer regardless of whether its a Toyota (the paragon of appliance) or a Porsche (the antipode of Toyota).

I personally will take a 25 dollar belt, 20 dollar bearing and an hour and a half of my time to replace a timing belt every 15 years or 60k miles. Having to replace tensioners, guides and chains (often multiple) in an engine because one part of the system has failed is not my ideal of a cheap and easy time.

Porsches in particular have been a complete horror show regarding cam chains from the get go and hasn’t gotten better over time. Should per chance a Porsche jump time, you are looking well north of 10 large to get its engine back running and likely closer to 16 depending on the unit in question and how badly it knackered itself. Not to mention the self machining syndrome the Boxster engines have suffered which destroys the entire engine.

Criticizing a 30 year old cheap car for its faults, comparing it to and expecting it to equal a much newer premium brand is a bit off frankly. Some of the things you are saying literally make no sense. The X does handle well, it does brake well and even though it doesn’t have much grunt it certainly sings the right song with half the displacement of a Boxster.

A Boxster or Cayman is an amazing and wonderful car if you can afford one along with its care and feeding. It is an excellent suggestion for someone who wishes to write checks, not much fun for someone who wants to make their own.
Timing chain issues are not just limited to high performance engines. In the 60s, someone got the brilliant idea to coat timing gear teeth with nylon to make them quieter and reduce wear (GM was big on this). Unfortunately, nylon teeth would eventually fail and lead to a couple of problems. One was the timing going out of whack as you might expect. The other was the nylon teeth clogging up the oil pump which would lead to low oil pressure.
 
So many GREAT inputs, thank you guy! I have a fun time reading and learned A LOT. A bit more on my approach of picking a fun weekend car either to replace or in addition to the SC430.
  1. A slow car that my limited skill and aged reflex can push to go fast. Slow like something that could get off the line and reach say 60 mpg around 7-8 seconds, just so not to be embarrassed driving around town by Civics and Camry, don't need to be fast but like to keep up.
  2. A convertible would be preferred as I live in Palm Desert area in the winter and Silicon Valley summer, both blessed with great convertible weather.
  3. Some uniqueness and memory factor to it, old guy here, likes older cars, besides most new performance cars are too fast for me.
First gen Boxster, MR2 would be fine, speed and performance wise but very common. Vintage? Original Mini coopers (owned 5), current mini (owned), Jensen Healey (owned), 124 Spider (owned), Corvette C3 (owned), Alfa spider (owned 2), been there done that, didn't feel like revisiting.

My choices, I welcome more inputs of course, at this point:
  1. MGA, my childhood hot car, but men the performance and usability sux.
  2. Jag E, another childhood dream, but so pricey now and kinda tail happy with my limited experience with it. Way to valuable to restomod.
  3. Big Healey, also very pricey, also Way to valuable to restomod.
  4. Mercedes SLK 1st gen, practical and just slow enough (upper 7sec 0-60), but Mercedes forum seems to hint that it has handling problems. It's a possibility.
  5. Boxster 986 the logical choice really! Another upper 7sec car.
  6. Honda S2000, don't really like the looks.
  7. Bimmer Z3, too ugly to my eyes.
  8. X1/9, something that I like but just like to have a bit more 'go'.
back to X, what's the potential of X's 1.5 liter? And thanks again guys for tolerating my random thoughts.
 
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Slow like something that could get off the line and reach say 60 mpg around 7-8 seconds
Unless you do some serious work to an X1/9 it'll never do that, not without reworking everything, these are only 0 - 60mph is 11.5 second cars, even a classic Alfa GTV6 with a 2.5 litre V6 will only do 0-60 in 8.5 seconds. The perform upgrade you'd need to do to an X1/9 would be extensive, brakes, suspension, cooling, wheels, tyres, probably body work to flare arches to accommodate wider rubber. There was always the argument that the X1/9 chassis could handle more power, but everything else would need to be upspec'd.
One option could be a mid to late 2000's Alfa Brera Spider, a 3.2 V6 if you can find one, very sexy, very italian, and brilliant engine. Rare enough to be interesting, but all the mod-cons like power steering and aircon. Probably on reflection, now Brera Spider is that little bit rarer, would possibly have chosen it myself over the Boxster, but my boyhood dream had always been to have a Porsche at one stage of my life.
 
Unless you do some serious work to an X1/9 it'll never do that, not without reworking everything, these are only 0 - 60mph is 11.5 second cars, even a classic Alfa GTV6 with a 2.5 litre V6 will only do 0-60 in 8.5 seconds. The perform upgrade you'd need to do to an X1/9 would be extensive, brakes, suspension, cooling, wheels, tyres, probably body work to flare arches to accommodate wider rubber. There was always the argument that the X1/9 chassis could handle more power, but everything else would need to be upspec'd.
One option could be a mid to late 2000's Alfa Brera Spider, a 3.2 V6 if you can find one, very sexy, very italian, and brilliant engine. Rare enough to be interesting, but all the mod-cons like power steering and aircon. Probably on reflection, now Brera Spider is that little bit rarer, would possibly have chosen it myself over the Boxster, but my boyhood dream had always been to have a Porsche at one stage of my life.
Not sure if I got it right, but Alfa Brera are quite unobtainable here in. USA? I have been eyeing the Brera for a long time, truly admire old maestro’s last design,
 
what's the potential of X's 1.5 liter?

100hp at the wheels isn't that hard if ypu choose the right parts for the build from a 1500.

1500 can also be stroked to 1600cc.

Later style (open deck) blocks available in europe can tolerate a longer stroke crank that yields almost 1900cc.

Tuning potential of the SOHC is very high, 100hp/l at the crankshaft is realistic.

SteveC
 
Criticizing a 30 year old cheap car for its faults, comparing it to and expecting it to equal a much newer premium brand is a bit off frankly.
You sort of missed the point here completely, I have an X1/9, it's my 3rd X1/9 with the 2nd one still in the garage as a donor car, as it is the same year/colour..well identical twin of my current X1/9, and I love them. But they do have all the faults I listed, my 1980 X1/9's reverse gear did crap out at 75,000 miles, X1/9's gearboxes are well documented as rubbish, especially 2nd and reverse, don't know how many electrical faults I've had to fix, all have or had overheating issues, from 16,000 miles to 80,000 miles, 2 have had starter motor issues, two blown head gaskets, let alone the rust I've had to deal with, an anemic heater, no air-con, wipers that are for aesthetics only, and struggle with anything more than drizzle, a driving position for midgets, BUT I'll still have one any day over a bland Miata or MR2 or even a BMW Z anything, apart from the Z8. It's just a frank opinion of the X1/9 to someone contemplating one. The X1/9 is fun to drive, steers preciously, and is light footed, but the brakes are unassisted and quite different to anything slightly modern, why I would be very nervous about significantly upping he power without addressing the suspension and brakes.
 
my 1980 X1/9's reverse gear did crap out at 75,000 miles, X1/9's gearboxes are well documented as rubbish, especially 2nd and reverse,

reverse gear going out to lunch isn't the fault of the transmissions design, it's due to lack of maintenance of the clutch hydraulics.... the failure of the internals is a cause of the hydraulics not being maintained. The same transmission is used in millions of Fiats with cable clutch actuation and has virtually no issues. 2nd gear failures I would put down to ham fisted drivers.

SteveC
 
Not sure if I got it right, but Alfa Brera are quite unobtainable here in. USA? I have been eyeing the Brera for a long time, truly admire old maestro’s last design,
Wasn't sure how obtainable they were in the US, they're not overly attainable here either, and you need to be patient and wait for one to come up, but anything Alfa always hangs around for a while, because it's an Alfa. Currently also buzzing around in a 2009 Alfa 147 Blackline, and it's hard not to put your foot down as it tears around like a go-cart, reminiscent of my old 1990 33 Boxer Cloverleaf.
If fun is a factor, I'm loving the little 147, sitting on 215/40 R19's, stiff suspension, heavily bolstered sports seats, and revvy little 2ltr twin spark engine that sounds great, but not that quick off the line, still only 0-60 in 8.9s. I'm finding every excuse to use this car to head out in.
 
I have never seen a Brera here. A few later GTVs as in the front wheel drive variety which have met the 25 year rule.

Non power brakes are one of the best things about the X, way better than the overassisted and poorly proportioned ones of the 124 or an early Miata (both of which I own). Now a bit more brake mass and ventilation for those track days might be nice...

Reverse tends to fail due to mishandling, shifting into reverse before the car comes to a halt has been shown to bend the reverse layshaft. My first X suffered this problem but came to me quite well used. Agreed it is a weak point of the design.
 
I really don't intend to feed any fires or dispute anyone's opinions. I fully support everyone's views. And I have the utmost respect for Steve C (fiatfactory), so this absolutely isn't personal.

But the comments Steve made about getting the 1500 to make enough power to be fun (bringing it up to the performance level of some of the discussed car options), actually supports my earlier comments (to find a better suited car to start with). It is very costly to build that kind of 1500 power - especially here in the US where we don't have the parts resources that other regions of the world have. Even more significant when viewed with respect to the value of these cars (or lack thereof).

You could argue the same money (to build a hot 1500) can be put toward a much more suitable car, or possibly be used to replace the timing chain on one that has been found to give occasional issues (for example). Basically you won't get something for nothing and it isn't cheap to play. In short, is it wise to put a bunch of money into a X to make it into what you want, or to choose a car more suited to your goals and put the money there? [Rhetorical question]

Again, I'm not saying this is the best option or suggesting what anyone should or shouldn't do. I'm just trying to stimulate some balance into this discussion. Many times I've been in the same decision position as the original poster and often it is very easy to lose sight of reality.

Before anyone gets all knotted up, understand that I often do the exact opposite if what I'm saying here. So this is only food for thought - nothing more.
 
My opinion (worth everything that was paid to obtain it): a Fiat 2000 Spider. Tremendous fun, not to costly, good performance, stylish, has the Fiat soul, not very expensive to maintain, LOTS of parts available, and the 2l engine can be powered up by the guys at Midwest Bayless for a reasonable price, if you want more performance. 1984-85 model pulls 135HP, which should make for reasonable 0-60 times.
 
You sort of missed the point here completely, I have an X1/9, it's my 3rd X1/9 with the 2nd one still in the garage as a donor car, as it is the same year/colour..well identical twin of my current X1/9, and I love them. But they do have all the faults I listed, my 1980 X1/9's reverse gear did crap out at 75,000 miles, X1/9's gearboxes are well documented as rubbish, especially 2nd and reverse, don't know how many electrical faults I've had to fix, all have or had overheating issues, from 16,000 miles to 80,000 miles, 2 have had starter motor issues, two blown head gaskets, let alone the rust I've had to deal with, an anemic heater, no air-con, wipers that are for aesthetics only, and struggle with anything more than drizzle, a driving position for midgets, BUT I'll still have one any day over a bland Miata or MR2 or even a BMW Z anything, apart from the Z8. It's just a frank opinion of the X1/9 to someone contemplating one. The X1/9 is fun to drive, steers preciously, and is light footed, but the brakes are unassisted and quite different to anything slightly modern, why I would be very nervous about significantly upping he power without addressing the suspension and brakes.

OK, we can help you with almost all of that:

1. Reverse gear: as mentioned, mostly driver error. The last iteration of the 5-speed (around 1982) did beef up the reverse gear shaft from 16mm to 18mm to help prevent the deflection under inadvisable loads (backup up a steep driveway too fast, for example).

2. 2nd gear: the difference between the 128 edition and the X1/9 edition of the 4 speed was that FIAT fitted cone synchros to 1st and 2nd as compared to Porsche synchros to all four gears in the 128, to accommodate the sportier driving style expected of an X1/9 owner. Having noted this, the 4 and 5 speeds do seem to be at the upper range of their capability in the X due to the X's greater overall weight as compared to the 128 and the fact that under acceleration, the X's traction increases greatly (as compared to the opposite with the FWD 128), placing more strain on the trans. A Muncie rock-crusher it ain't. Not helping matters is the fact that there were issues with the quality of non-FIAT replacement cone synchros.

3. An X owner with "don't know how many electrical faults I've had to fix" is an owner who is doing crisis management and not automotive maintenance. I will grant that many shade tree mechanics approach electrical repair as torture incarnate, but IMO the X's electrics are perfect for learning the basics---schematics are simple, the wiring is positively (pardon the pun) gargantuan compared to the fragile copper angel hair on today's cars, the connectors are the best available from the era, and all that's needed is the perseverance to do it right the first time.

4. Overheating issues: we can help with these, too. First, overheating is NOT "my car runs a tick above 190F°occasionally." The temp gauge is showing you a real time direct analog reading of one spot in the cooling system---it is NOT like the gauge on a modern car that shows you what the programmers want the computer to show you. Reading your gauge is not so much having the needle stay on a number, but knowing what the needle swings are trying to tell you. The cooling system on the X is neither complicated nor failure prone---it is also NOT tolerant of neglect. Most issues are grounded in neglect, the rest are due to the age of the car.

5. Starter motor: the Magneti Marelli motors have an issue with the solenoid but this can be refurbed at home for less than $5.

6. Blown head gaskets: neglect from #4 equals blown head gaskets. Upon repair, most cars will need a retorque procedure that if neglected will result in more had gasket issues.

7. Rust: all cars from 1972-1988 rusted. Period.

8. Anemic heater: back to #4.

9. No air con: likely not offered to NZ. It CAN be fitted by acquiring all of the parts, and made to work very well in desert conditions. Refer to posts by LarryC.

10. Wipers: back to #3. Any number of posts have shown wiper relay mods that solve this issue.

11. Driving position for midgets: Hey, some people are just too big and/or tall for the car, it's no one's fault.
 
My opinion (worth everything that was paid to obtain it): a Fiat 2000 Spider. Tremendous fun, not to costly, good performance, stylish, has the Fiat soul, not very expensive to maintain, LOTS of parts available, and the 2l engine can be powered up by the guys at Midwest Bayless for a reasonable price, if you want more performance. 1984-85 model pulls 135HP, which should make for reasonable 0-60 times.

Mine was a '72 with the 1608 engine. FUN car but didn't have much go, especially in hilly conditions, I like slow car but 80hp in a 2200 lbs (with me in it) car just too slow. 135hp? that must be the super charged version? I read somewhere that tranny and rear end were the weak links in those 124s, couldn't handle much power, true?
 
OK, we can help you with almost all of that:
Not quite.
Electrics have got nothing to do with 'crisis management' or 'automotive maintenance', they are things that just stop working and need fixing, indicators, windows, headlight motor mechanisms. Many connections throughout the X1/9 are poor, but no one, as regular maintenance, is going to clean every connection throughout an X1/9, let alone any car, on the chance it may fail. They do it when it fails. You are right about one thing, which goes for much of the car, it is basic, and anyone with some basic mechanical and electrical knowledge can fix it.
Blown head gaskets are simple physics, not just limited to X1/9's, but for any engine with an alloy head and iron block, the two different metals, expand and contract differently, so being more prone to blown head gaskets. That was the beauty of the old Alfa's, they used Alloy Blocks and Heads, as do all performance sports cars, Porsche, Audi, Alfa,.... the list goes on.
Driving position is not helped by having no column adjustments, so even those with thighs bigger than a stick insect struggle to get under the wheel.
Anemic heater in not about temperature, it's about airflow, or lack there of, so for those not in California,waiting for the windscreen to demist is a life time.
As for the wipers, why should anyone need to stuff around with a relay to make it work, it should work off the factory floor, that is the whole point.
Mine is not a criticism of X1/9's, having brought my first one in my early 20's and then, 10 years later another one, and another one 10 years after that as a parts car for the 2nd one. It's just a frank opinion of life with an X1/9, it's not modern, it's semi-reliable, it's basic, it's an arse to work on, but it's quirky, fun to drive and own, and is an iconic classic that doesn't really get the recognition it deserves. It is much more historically significant than so many underwhelming classics.
 
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(to find a better suited car to start with).
I'm still with DJ on this, the X1/9 is a fantastic, quirky, ingenious, stylish, very Italian little classic than ran for close to 20 years unchanged, other than some bumper extensions and other cosmetic changes. But is it what it is, and accepting that will put a smile on your face. Wanting it to be something it isn't may very well lead to disappointment. There are many that have tinkered with their X1/9's, but I believe the motivation is different, a project, the joy of adapting and building something of their own, and the reward of success. Unless that is your profession or hobby, it is a very expensive pursuit to have done professionally for which you can almost guarantee no return on investment.
Me personally, what would be really cool would be to do an EV conversion on an X1/9 using the front boot for the battery bank. You should easily be able to shoehorn an EV engine in the rear without the need for tricky gear linkages, and with it's size and weight should go like a scalded cat!
 
Driving position is not helped by having no column adjustments, so even those with thighs bigger than a stick insect struggle to get under the wheel.
There's a fair amount of adjustment by adding washers underneath the two nuts (down) or two bolts (up)that hold the column to the underside of the dash. Just be sure to keep the breakaway washers under the two bolts - they're what keep the column out of your chest in a collision.
 
Me personally, what would be really cool would be to do an EV conversion on an X1/9 using the front boot for the battery bank. You should easily be able to shoehorn an EV engine in the rear without the need for tricky gear linkages, and with it's size and weight should go like a scalded cat!

I like how you think. Definitely food for thought!
 
Me personally, what would be really cool would be to do an EV conversion on an X1/9 using the front boot for the battery bank. You should easily be able to shoehorn an EV engine in the rear without the need for tricky gear linkages, and with it's size and weight should go like a scalded cat!

There have been at least two of those done on this forum.

Both were done on tight budgets and therefore did not use Li-Ion battery packs so were very heavy and had little range.

Consider that the modern FIAT 500e has a weight penalty of 640 lbs*** over its gas engine cousins. So even a modern X1/9 EV conversion would have to have a similar weight penalty. I don't know about you, but I don't think a 2850 LB X1/9 would be fun to drive.

***https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/fiat-500-vs-fiat-500e/
 
Both were done on tight budgets and therefore did not use Li-Ion battery packs so were very heavy and had little range.
I'm talking about one using proper technology. With the increasing number of EV's on the scene, there's going to be an increased number of totaled ones. Maybe just ripping the guts out of a wreaked Nissan Leaf, which will do around 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Even when entry level Tesla's start ending up wrapped around trees, or VW's Golf EV's end up in ditches. The technology is increasing at a rate of knots in both performance and range, with an ever decreasing cost.
May be tempted in a few years to strip out my 'parts' X1/9 and have a crack! Will keep the Greenies happy.
 
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I'm talking about one using proper technology. With the increasing number of EV's on the scene, there's going to be an increased number of totaled ones. Maybe just ripping the guts out of a wreaked Nissan Leaf, which will do around 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Even when entry level Tesla's start ending up wrapped around trees, or VW's Golf EV's end up in ditches. The technology is increasing at a rate of knots in both performance and range, with an ever decreasing cost.
May be tempted in a few years to strip out my 'parts' X1/9 and have a crack! Will keep the Greenies happy.

That will make me very happy too!

Rather wait a few years to salvage parts from a 2nd gen Leaf:

Wheelbase 2,700 mm (106.3 in)
Length 4,490 mm (176.8 in) - X 150"
Width 1,788 mm (70.4 in) - X 61"
Height 1,530 mm (60.2 in) - X 46"
Curb weight 1,580–1,640 kg (3,480–3,620 lb)
The electric motor produces 110 kilowatts (147 hp) and 320 newton metres (236 lb⋅ft) of torque​

Quite sure the X1/Lf will weight less than the 2nd gen leaf, so may be in the 2,800- 3,000lbs range, 147hp and 236 lb-ft is plenty for that. As is, the 2nd gen's 0-60 was 8sec, may be mid 7sec in X? Those instant 236 lb-ft would make hill climbing fun!

But this is never never land, no one know how stuff will fit and what it takes to make it work.
 
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