Cleaning out coolant passages in heads?

Did a bit more research on 'vinegar'.

After looking in stores at different varieties, I could only find one strength ("5% acidity"). So I did a little reading about vinegar to see what that really means. Turns out vinegar is a diluted form of acetic acid (but made from sugar fermentation rather than in a lab). By definition it can be roughly between 5% and 20% diluted. The pH values noted earlier (prior post) are for the strongest stuff (20%). However you will only find the weakest versions (5%) in American stores. In Germany they sell the 20% dilution vinegar, so there you would find it more effective for uses like we are discussing (cleaning scale from cooling passages). But the 5% dilution we have in the USA may not cut it.

So how much different does the percentage make? To put it into perspective, a 6% dilution is 20% stronger (acid) than a 5% dilution. So ya, it makes a huge difference.
None the less it is extremely cheap (like $2.50 a gal). So I will experiment with a aluminum part to see what happens when left to soak in vinegar. But I'm not optimistic after learning this. You'd be better off buying some acetic acid, looking at it's percentage of dilution, and adding more distilled water to bring it down to your desired pH. But without some decent laboratory equipment you will be mostly guessing at the outcome. Not sure I want to risk my head on it.

One interesting tidbit; mixing vinegar and laundry bleach creates toxic chlorine gas. So it's best to not start experimenting with all of the household products you find around the place.
 
I put a old 'trash' 1500 head in some vinegar today, to see what happens. The head is actually fairly clean and not a lot of scale buildup. But I'm interested to see how the aluminum reacts, what happens to other things like the valve guides, etc when the head is submerged rather than trying to just fill the cooling passages. To heat up the vinegar I put the whole head into this electric cooker with a gallon of vinegar:
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Got the cooker at a thrift store for less than $5 several years ago. It will get up to 450 degrees F. Works great for improving the cleaning action of solvents.

The vinegar started to boil and evaporate at around 300*, so I backed the temp down to 250 and let it 'cook' for about 4 hours. Then it got late and I decided to turn off the heat and just let it soak overnight. However I've just realized that tomorrow I have other business to take care of, so not sure when I'll take it out. A gallon of vinegar was only enough to cover about an inch or two of the head (placed with the chambers facing down, like it sits on the engine). I will update things whenever I get back to it.
 
Acetic acid is a weak organic acid. Actually by organic acid standards is is fairly strong (low pH). I think soft drinks have a lower pH though. Carbonic acid. I found cleaning grade vinegar, but can’t remember the strength. There is much more to corrosiveness than pH, but generally metals become more soluble as it lowers.

Chlorine is no fun, hypochlorite (bleach) is essentially sodium hydroxide and chlorine, lower the pH and you reverse and liberate chlorine.

Will be interested to see your results.
 
I will experiment with a aluminum part to see what happens when left to soak in vinegar. But I'm not optimistic
I put a old 'trash' 1500 head in some vinegar today, to see what happens.
Wow, I just quoted myself - twice. :rolleyes:

Results of vinegar to clean out the coolant passages in a head:
This was straight (full strength) vinegar of the highest concentration sold in the US (afaik). The head soaked in the vinegar for more than 24 hours. Half of that time was with 250+ degrees heat energy added. Then the head was removed and rinsed for analysis.
First impressions when removing the head from the bath were a bit optimistic. The solution was rusty looking, appearing like it had removed some scale from the coolant passages. But after the rinse and a closer look it was actually rust from unwanted sources. The valve guides, valve seats, and hex plugs in the head are all ferrous steel and they rusted badly while in the vinegar (which is mostly water). Meanwhile the scale was untouched. Even the raw aluminum surfaces looked no better. But they should have, because acids like this are typically excellent aluminum cleaners (removing all oxidation from the surface). However not here. Vinegar is so mild it did more harm than good. Complete failure, pretty much as expected. Not even worth taking a picture.

I pressure washed the head and will throw it into the hot bath again. This time with some old, contaminated, diluted phosphoric acid as the solution. Honestly I do not expect this particular batch of 'bad' (dirty, weak) acid to work well, but if the base substance (phosphoric acid) is good for this application we should see some indication of it. Hopefully tomorrow it will go into that hot bath.

Couple of side notes:
I never realized the socket/hex/allen head plugs in the head were a ferrous steel. That explains why you cannot remove them. After years of dissimilar metals like this have been in contact (aluminum head and steel plugs), they are welded together permanently. Sucks because it would help to clean out the coolant passages if you could remove them. Hate to say it, but yet another poor engineering decision on the part of Fiat (imho).

I've noticed on some Fiat parts seller's sites they have valve guides available in either cast iron or brass (bronze?) materials. I think the original ones were cast iron, like the ones in the above experimental head. I might be incredibly naive but that seems like a poor choice of material. Perhaps my perspective is biased, based on a region of engine manufacturer that uses a better suited material, so maybe I just don't know any better.

Living (temporarily) in a region with incredibly hard water, off the chart UV, a complete lack of humidity, and unheard of hot temperatures really sucks. I've only been here for a short time, but already I've gone through three pressure washers. The combination of these conditions totally destroys everything in a unbelievably short time.
 
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Something I forgot to mention about the vinegar test review (above post).
Another benefit I was hoping to achieve by submerging the entire head in a solution (rather that just filling the coolant passages), was to remove carbon build up in the head's ports (especially exhaust ones) and combustion chambers. The vinegar did not do a thing to the carbon, which wasn't even bad on this head. So again, it did more harm than good.

Because this head was already trash anyway, I did not mind risking damage to the guides and seats. For that reason I will again 'submerge' it when I try the old solution of weak phosphoric acid. This time there should be enough solution to completely submerge all of the head instead of only an inch or two. That might lessen the rust development on the guides and hex plugs, because I think a lot of it in the prior test was from the water evaporating out of the solution. It would condense on the lid of the 'hot tank' (cooker) and the exposed iron components were kept wet. The valve seats were under the vinegar level and did not rust nearly as much (hardly at all). But they may also be made from a different grade of steel. Either way, phosphoric acid is an excellent rust remover and preventer so there might not be any rusting issues this time.
If rust is still an issue on the iron components, or if the acid appears to cause any damage to them, then the next attempt would be to just fill the coolant passages within the head (rather than submerge it).
 
For carbon and grease in general I have been using cheap lubricant from Walmart. Mineral sprits also works. Work in with an old toothbrush. For thick deposits use a screwdriver to break it up. I use the rags to help start my shop wood stove. I also heat up dilute detergent in a pot on the wood stove to degrease parts.
 
It can certainly get complex. We have various kinds of deposits, accumulations, substances, residue, etc, all of which have different chemical properties and will react very differently to various agents. And we are dealing with different metals as substrates. In some cases a acid will work but in others a base is better. Properties like corrosiveness, pH, or whatever are all at play, and differ in each instance. Degressers, detergents, solvants, etc, etc...many different substances available, all of which have changed dramatically over the years. A lot of the information readily available from sources like the internet are often incomplete, incorrect, or confusing. And it has been MANY years since I was in a chemistry class. So this is a learning experiment with a lot of trial and error. I am certainly open to more suggestions.
 
I decarbonized the pistons of a 7 liter V8 using hot Uresolve in an ultrasonic cleaner. It took about 30-45 minutes doing 2 pistons at a time but they came out nice and clean without touching them. Uresolve was pretty strong stuff and I don't know if it is still made or still legal. It was real good at dissolving thermosetting plastics which are tough to affect with most solvents.
 
A quick search shows there is a Uresolve cleaning product still available. Looks like a urethane cleaner. But its expensive (first price I saw was $230/gal).
 
It was pretty cheap in the 70s
Everything was. Ah, the good old days. There is one thing it seems hasn't increased in price dramatically though. The Fiat X1/9. That's one reason I like it; they are cheap enough that you can buy one, sort it out, play with it, have some fun, and not break the bank.
 
Perhaps another way to think about cleaning out the system would be to fully assemble the engine and then cycle through the appropriate acid mixture in a closed loop with filter media using a drill to drive the water pump at relatively low speed to move fresh acid over all the interior surfaces of the block and head.

This way the only surfaces seeing the acid are elements that see coolant materials anyway. Just a thought.
 
Actually I did that on my other X engine. It was still in the car and running so I did a system flush and then cleaned it with oxalic acid. The radiator, undercarriage tubes, hoses, water pump, etc, won't be reused so I didn't bother to filter anything. I haven't pulled that head off yet (I will eventually), so I cannot say how well it cleaned any scale in it (don't even know how much there was to start with).

But the engine I'm currently working on is already out of the car and torn down. So it isn't as convenient to do it that way. If none of the cleaning tests with the trashed head work out, then I'll reconsider it. Maybe make a "flush rig" to make things easier. Would also need to figure a way to keep the thermostat open without it bypassing. And get a good seal on the head gasket (that could not be reused). One problem is it takes a long time for the acid solutions to break down the scale. So the set up would have to run overnight. For that same reason my prior attempt to clean the first engine (in the above paragraph) may not have been 100% successful. I could not actually drive the car (no brakes) so I just let it sit at a high idle. But I couldn't leave it running for extreme periods. It will be interesting to compare the outcomes between the two.
 
Yesterday I was running errands and stopped at a store that carries a very large selection of various cleaning products. Perhaps one of the largest selections of types, brands, and applications I've seen in a long time. I searched through many of them, looking at their labels for contents/ingredients and intended uses. A couple of interesting findings....

In another thread "Hasbro" mentioned the use of "Bar Keepers Friend" cleaning powder for rust removal on surfaces: https://xwebforums.com/forum/index....-powder-cheap-rust-remover.35851/#post-311115.
The principle ingredient is Oxalic Acid, which we have discussed here as well. At the store I noticed there are a couple versions of that cleaning product. The dry powder as referenced, a cream 'polish', and a liquid cleaner. All have Oxalic Acid as the main ingredient, but the liquid one also has Citric Acid. That is another of the acids noted for scale removal when I was searching the topic. I assume these household cleaners are very weak versions of the acid(s). But the mixture of the two types (oxalic and citric) in the liquid version is interesting. The price for a bottle of the liquid was around $4, and a couple bottles might be enough to fill the just coolant passages. Although I think it is too weak for our use.

Coffee pot cleaners vary considerably in their contents. At least one had Oxalic Acid as its key ingredient and some had Citric Acid, while others use a base (more on alkalines later). No idea just how strong these solutions are.

Some cleaning products for toilets, hard water deposits, lime, etc use acids like Hydrochloric, Muriatic, and Sulfuric. Again, I assume they are rather weak solutions of those acids because they are very strong otherwise.

Some drain cleaners also have strong acids like those above, another uses lye which is a strong alkaline. According to what I read previously, acids should work better for scale than bases.

I suppose some of these products are easily available sources for some agents that might work to clean the scale out of a head. The problem is their labels do not say how much of the acid(s) or what dilution they contain. I assume all of them are very weak. And frankly many of them are very expensive for their quantity. So I think it is better to stick with buying the actual ingredient (eg. acid) of choice and mix it to your preferred solution strength. I remember one of my intro chemistry professors saying that most household cleaning products are just really expensive dilutions of an otherwise inexpensive chemical.

I also looked around for other sources of Oxalic Acid. It is a common wood cleaner ("wood bleach") in some areas, but not around here (where there is zero humidity and therefore no wood staining). The local paint store carries a liquid version of it mixed with water, but the label does not specify the percentage or strength. And it was very expensive. In the past I have purchased straight Oxalic Acid in powder form online for a reasonable cost (but it isn't super cheap). At least that way you know what you have based on how you mix it.

Not many places carry the old "Naval Jelly" rust remover anymore, especially not the one for aluminum. One hardware store had both versions (for steel or aluminum). Both labels say the key ingredient is Phosphoric Acid, which is a well know rust remover. I imagine the one for aluminum use is just a weaker solution of the acid? But it might have other buffers to protect the aluminum from too much corrosion. A fairly small bottle was around $6, and it would probibly take at least four or more bottles to fill the coolant passages. Not super cheap but also not too expensive compared to some of the other options. The thickened 'jelly' form of the acid might be easier to fill the coolant cavities without getting it all over the rest of the head (I think). Maybe it could be 'injected' into the passages with a huge syringe or something? No idea how well it works to remove the scale and deposits. It may still be too weak for this use.
I filtered the used, weak phosphoric acid I have. Took forever due to the heavy contamination. It should be good enough to experiment with on my trash head. If it looks promising then I'll look more at the phosphoric options. Otherwise Oxalic Acid is seeming more promising, based on the research and the labels I saw at the stores (for their intended uses). I still have some of it to test as well. Should be able to get some results in a few days.
 
Y


Not many places carry the old "Naval Jelly" rust remover anymore, especially not the one for aluminum. One hardware store had both versions (for steel or aluminum). Both labels say the key ingredient is Phosphoric Acid, which is a well know rust remover. I imagine the one for aluminum use is just a weaker solution of the acid? But it might have other buffers to protect the aluminum from too much corrosion. A fairly small bottle was around $6, and it would probibly take at least four or more bottles to fill the coolant passages. Not super cheap but also not too expensive compared to some of the other options. The thickened 'jelly' form of the acid might be easier to fill the coolant cavities without getting it all over the rest of the head (I think). Maybe it could be 'injected' into the passages with a huge syringe or something? No idea how well it works to remove the scale and deposits. It may still be too weak for this use.
I filtered the used, weak phosphoric acid I have. Took forever due to the heavy contamination. It should be good enough to experiment with on my trash head. If it looks promising then I'll look more at the phosphoric options. Otherwise Oxalic Acid is seeming more promising, based on the research and the labels I saw at the stores (for their intended uses). I still have some of it to test as well. Should be able to get some results in a few days.

I have been using phosphoric acid on the rust pits in my windshield channel and other parts of the car. It is good at dissolving rust, only it very slow and takes many applications. With rust it forms a black oxide, I have been scratching it a bit to encourage it getting deeper into the remaining rust. I do not how it works with mineral deposits. I have naval Jelly (found a store with some left in stock) and a liquid versions labeled as "rust remover" from Aircraft Spruce. Both of them eventually get to a clean surface,including in the pits. Once again, it takes patience for entrenched rust, I have dozens of applications on the windshield channel, with each one showing some improvement.

Paul Davock
 
With rust it forms a black oxide
Paul, thanks for taking the time to read through my ramblings.
The black oxide that remains after treating rust with phosphoric acid is a 'phosphate' layer or coating. It's a residual product (conversion) from the chemical reaction between that type of acid and the rust oxide. The phosphate works as an excellent rust preventative, protecting the metal. The same type of process is what happens with those "rust converters" on the market. A form of this phosphate is applied to some new metal products to prevent flash rusting until they can be finished ("phosphate coated"). And you do not have to remove it before applying a finish (eg. prime/paint), because it has a chemical bond with the metal substrate and continues to protect it under the finish (just clean the surface with a pre-paint solvent). That is the biggest benefit of using phosphoric acid to treat rust. Other stronger acids (Muriatic for example) will dissolve the rust more quickly, but they do not leave the protective phosphate layer. With heavily rusted metal, muriatic acid can be used first, then a second treatment with phosphoric acid. Phosphoric acid also etches the metal surface, so even unrusted areas (bare metal) will hold paint better. The strength (dilution) of phosphoric acid used will dictate how fast it works, and the area should be kept wet with it while it is working. Therefore the best method is to submerge the part into a solution and let it soak. But that's not always practical, so the gelatinous form of "Naval Jelly" helps to hold it in place longer. I suspect Naval Jelly is a fairly weak form of it, otherwise there is a risk of damaging thinner metals (too much etching, it can eventually eat away the metal). You can buy Naval Jelly online; I saw a listing from Lowes for in-store pick up at a decent price.

However as you say, the fact that it is good for rust does not necessarily mean it is good for scale deposits. So I'm not certain how it will work on the head.
 
The black oxide that remains after treating rust with phosphoric acid is a 'phosphate' layer or coating. It's a residual product (conversion) from the chemical reaction between that type of acid and the rust oxide. The phosphate works as an excellent rust preventative, protecting the metal.

I know that this is supposedly the case, only there are times that when I use a scribe to scratch the oxide, I find rust underneath. I am going for shiny metal throughout because I know well that rust never sleeps, and can be like a virus. I also can be compulsive about doing it right.

I like your suggestion of starting with Muriatic acid to speed the process up, and finishing with Phosphoric acid.

Paul
 
there are times that when I use a scribe to scratch the oxide, I find rust underneath
Typically that happens when the acid was not in direct contact and kept wet long enough. In other words, it did not have the opportunity to completely convert the rust (oxide). For example, with fuel tanks that have some internal rust, I fill them with phosphoric acid and let them soak overnight. On occasion I even repeat it another night if there is still any sign of rust. Phosphoric acid is slow, but that also helps preserve the metal from damage. That's where the two step process (strong acid followed by phos) helps. But the strong acid can destroy your metal in a hurry and requires lots of flushing and neutralization. That is where the problem comes in; flushing often starts flash rust formation. Phosphoric should prevent this (when completely treated).
 
Typically that happens when the acid was not in direct contact and kept wet long enough.
.

Thanks forth this. My incorrect assumption had been that the black oxide formed a barrier to the rust underneath. I have been keeping my application of the acid replenished, and it is working very well indeed. Slow but sure.

What is new on the descaling?

Paul
 
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