Clutch doesn't engage!

nichol01

nichol01

True Classic
I have spent late night Friday and all day Saturday trying to get my X out for first test drive. Mounted axles, peddle box, brake hoses to reservoirs,bled brakes and clutch, put seats in, lowered car and started engine. Put it in gear pull out clutch peddle and nothing. Clutch doesn't engage. I then shut it down and rolled the car while in gear. Definitely no clutch contact to flywheel. I can here and feel the pressure plate working when i use clutch peddle. I had installed a new clutch, pressure plate, and throw out bearing from one of our reputable vendors. I also had the flywheel resurfaced. I thought mayby the step on the flywheel was machined wrong, not sure.
Not sure if anyone can provide any help. Just really frustrated right now. Don't want to pull trans!!

Reservoir from Jeff Stitch. Thanks Jeff
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Low cost pressure bleader. Used old bike tube. A little air pressure pushed brake fluid to the rears very easily.

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Sorry for your troubles.

Clutch disc installed backwards (which wouldn’t make sense ss one would think this would cause it to never disengage)?

Wrong disc which isn’t engaging the transmission input shaft? Ie too large.

Perhaps the throwout arm is jammed forwards? Is it showing any movement when you push the pedal in? Not retracting enough to allow the pressure plate to move enough?

Throwout bearing came adrift and is now jamming the pressure plate down to stay disengaged? Installed upside down which might be holding the face of the bearing forward?

Try unbolting the slave cylinder from the transmission and see if that changes the behavior?
 
hate to say it but it does sound like it needs to come out.

If you change gears with the motor running (clutch pedal up) do you get any gear clash at all?

If you have two people have someone work the clutch pedal and watch the arm, is it moving like it should (if by your self maybe a stick or 2x4 cut to the right length?

When you were putting the transmission up to the motor. did the transmission slide easily all the way to the motor or did it go most of the way and then a steady push (like you were compressing the fingers on the pressure plate).

Pictures of the clutch arm might help. If you can maybe a video of the arm moving. someone might spot something. But My money would be on the transmission needing to come out again.

(just did that the other day myself) pulled the box, swapped pressure plates and put it back in. Once you have done it. it get's easier each time.

if the flywheel was turned and the two-step was removed that would also cause what you are talking about. when you were putting the pressure plate on. How far did you have to push the plate to the flywheel with the bolts?
 
I pressure bled my clutch hydraulics after putting in a new MC and reservoir and hoses. Still didn't do the trick as I could not get the car in bear with the motor running (pedal had no resistance for 3/4 of the pedal travel). Then had one of my kids help with traditional pedal bleeding and that got the rest of the air out and the clutch then worked perfectly. If not that then sadly the gearbox is probably going to have to come out.
 
nichol01 said:
I have spent late night Friday and all day Saturday trying to get my X out for first test drive. Mounted axles, peddle box, brake hoses to reservoirs,bled brakes and clutch, put seats in, lowered car and started engine. Put it in gear pull out clutch peddle and nothing. Clutch doesn't engage. I then shut it down and rolled the car while in gear. Definitely no clutch contact to flywheel. I can here and feel the pressure plate working when i use clutch peddle. I had installed a new clutch, pressure plate, and throw out bearing from one of our reputable vendors. I also had the flywheel resurfaced. I thought mayby the step on the flywheel was machined wrong, not sure.
Not sure if anyone can provide any help. Just really frustrated right now. Don't want to pull trans!!

Reservoir from Jeff Stitch. Thanks Jeff
View attachment 14417

Low cost pressure bleader. Used old bike tube. A little air pressure pushed brake fluid to the rears very easily.

View attachment 14418
Click to expand...
I've been using that same setup for years, and last week bled my clutch and brakes. Works great. The only problem I had was that the rear was up at a 15 degree angle to get the engine in, and the rear brake reservoir could not fill at that angle (The one cap over front reservoir would not fill rear reservoir at that angle). Lowered car to get around that issue.
 
Thanks for all the replies.
I do have good movement on the clutch arm while pushing the clutch peddle. I used a broomstick while watching the arm. I can feel the pressure plate move and hear it operate.

I did also removed slave cylinder and pushed the car in gear. No resistance not even a scraping noise like the clutch disk was close to engaging.

When i installed trans with the motor out. I slipped the clutch disk on the trans shaft to make sure it went on smoothly. Then triple checked which way the disk went against flywheel. I do remember it looked like it could only go on one way. Then bolted on pressure plate while using alignment tool. When i bolted up trans i had to rotate motor slightly for the splines to line up. It seemed like it went on pretty smoothly.

Another thing i didnt mention is after I bolted up trans the next few days were very humid. I could see that the flywheel rusted pretty bad. I didnt start the motor for another month. And now its been two months sitting untill trying it yesterday. I did lube the trans shaft but could it be possible for the throwout bearing to rust on shaft and then when i pushed the clutch could it have gone passed the rust and is now holding the pressure plate open? I am going to keep operating the clutch in the hopes that it might be it and it will move past that area.

I was really hoping to drive it this weekend. Just another set back of many. Starting to look like trans is coming out again.
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dllubin said:
I've been using that same setup for years, and last week bled my clutch and brakes. Works great. The only problem I had was that the rear was up at a 15 degree angle to get the engine in, and the rear brake reservoir could not fill at that angle (The one cap over front reservoir would not fill rear reservoir at that angle). Lowered car to get around that issue.
Click to expand...

I came across this idea of using a bike tube from an xweb post. I thought what a great idea. I don't know maybe it was something you posted. It works great.
 
OK that is a good clue, that the flywheel was rusty, the disc can rust to the face of the flywheel and not release.

A way to get it to release, assuming this is the problem, is to have someone who can drive (you), someone to jack the car up using the center point and lift the car until the tires are both off the ground with you in it. Have the car pointed towards the end of the driveway.

Put it in first, start it and then rev it to 2-3k in first, hold the clutch in and the foot brake in (a little heal and toe action on your part) and then have the second person drop the car onto the pavement with the wheels turning. Presuming it is just a rusted pressure plate this will release the pressure plate from its intimate embrace with the flywheel.

If it just stalls, you might try this twice before assuming your problem is something else.

Struck through because I am an idiot and didn’t think before posting...what else is new?
 
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kmead said:
OK that is a good clue, that the flywheel was rusty, the disc can rust to the face of the flywheel and not release.

A way to get it to release, assuming this is the problem, is to have someone who can drive (you), someone to jack the car up using the center point and lift the car until the tires are both off the ground with you in it. Have the car pointed towards the end of the driveway.

Put it in first, start it and then rev it to 2-3k in first, hold the clutch in and the foot brake in (a little heal and toe action on your part) and then have the second person drop the car onto the pavement with the wheels turning. Presuming it is just a rusted pressure plate this will release the pressure plate from its intimate embrace with the flywheel.

If it just stalls, you might try this twice before assuming your problem is something else.
Click to expand...

I had that issue when i first purchased the car. It was sotting for 15 years. What i did was jack up the rear and started the car in third gear. I reved engine up and down while operating clutch peddle in and out this eventually freed the rusted disc to flywheel.

This problem is different I am getting no contact at disc to flywheel and pressure plate. I can put the car in gear and push it around with no resistance. Also I can start the car and put it in all gears with the clutch peddle out.
 
nichol01 said:
I came across this idea of using a bike tube from an xweb post. I thought what a great idea. I don't know maybe it was something you posted. It works great.
Click to expand...
I did post it some time back, but perhaps others have as well. I came up with the idea after a power bleeder I borrowed didn't work and with no helper available to pump the brakes, I had no transportation. I had just replaced a tube on my mountain bike and the tube needing a patch was sitting there. I looked at the cross-section and thought "that should slide right over the brake fluid reservoir mouth". Instead of patching it, I just cut the bad section out, rolled up the open end and sealed it with a spring clamp and used a hose clamp on the end over the reservoir. I typically just use a bicycle pump to inflate it.
 
reading comprehension and me today = 0

Oh! Well then, never mind in my best Rose Anne Roseannadanna voice...
 
It sounds like your throwout bearing may be installed upside down.

I've done that once by accident.. whoops! I had the exact same symptoms as you did. There is still travel at the slave cylinder.


However, remove the slave cylinder and see how easily the throwout fork moves. If it moves VERY easily.. something is wrong. If there is very little movement of the bearing (or none) before preload, then your bearing may be upside down. Unfortunately it can be mounted that way.
 
myronx19 said:
It sounds like your throwout bearing may be installed upside down.

I've done that once by accident.. whoops! I had the exact same symptoms as you did. There is still travel at the slave cylinder.


However, remove the slave cylinder and see how easily the throwout fork moves. If it moves VERY easily.. something is wrong. If there is very little movement of the bearing (or none) before preload, then your bearing may be upside down. Unfortunately it can be mounted that way.
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That is possible. I took a picture of my throw out bearing on old set up before disassembly.
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I thought for sure i put it in right. I did notice when i took the slave cylinder off the arm had alot of movement before it would hit pressure plate. I assumed as long as the arm would move away from the pressure plate the clutch would be engaged.
I guess the trans is coming out.:mad::oops:
 
+1 to Rod's hunch.

Jeff Vandyke had a situation where his throwout bearing was installed backwards and even though it played hell with his clutch adjustment, he was able to adjust it so the car drove (and drove a lot--Jeff was DDing the car for years).

So like Rod I am inclined to think the flywheel was incorrectly machined. Losing the correct "difference" between the flywheel-to-clutch friction surfaces and the plate mounting surface, which would happen if the friction surface were ground and an equal thickness of material was not removed from the pressure plate mounting surface on the outer circumference of the flywheel, would result in the clutch disc not being gripped sufficiently, if at all.

Test: block a front wheel, raise one rear tire off the ground, release handbrake, engage 4th gear, disconnect the linkage return spring at the slave cyl, shorten the adjustment rod so that there is freeplay between the rod and the clutch operating arm (thus taking any issues with the linkage out of the equation), and manually turn the tire in the air forward. This MUST result in the engine turning over if the clutch disc is being gripped by the pressure of the pressure plate sandwiching it to the flywheel. The bell housing has the timing window and at least one vent that you might be able to snake one of those $10 phone-mounted inspection cameras inside to see if our hunch is true.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
+1 to Rod's hunch.

Jeff Vandyke had a situation where his throwout bearing was installed backwards and even though it played hell with his clutch adjustment, he was able to adjust it so the car drove (and drove a lot--Jeff was DDing the car for years).

So like Rod I am inclined to think the flywheel was incorrectly machined. Losing the correct "difference" between the flywheel-to-clutch friction surfaces and the plate mounting surface, which would happen if the friction surface were ground and an equal thickness of material was not removed from the pressure plate mounting surface on the outer circumference of the flywheel, would result in the clutch disc not being gripped sufficiently, if at all.

Test: block a front wheel, raise one rear tire off the ground, release handbrake, engage 4th gear, disconnect the linkage return spring at the slave cyl, shorten the adjustment rod so that there is freeplay between the rod and the clutch operating arm (thus taking any issues with the linkage out of the equation), and manually turn the tire in the air forward. This MUST result in the engine turning over if the clutch disc is being gripped by the pressure of the pressure plate sandwiching it to the flywheel. The bell housing has the timing window and at least one vent that you might be able to snake one of those $10 phone-mounted inspection cameras inside to see if our hunch is true.
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When i had the flywheel machined the machinist said he had info on all vehicles tolerences for the step. I felt he knew what he was doing. I am leaning this way also. Since i feel like no matter which way the clutch and throw out bearing was installed. I should still have resistance when pushing car in gear. There is nothing. I pushed the car in gear when I took the slave cylinder off and pulled arm back as far as possible. I am going to go ahead and pull trans then I'll know for sure. It just pains me to do it. I have everything painted and looking nice. And I know this job is not very easy as to not bang thing up.
20180519_135326.jpg
 
nichol01 said:
When i had the flywheel machined the machinist said he had info on all vehicles tolerences for the step. I felt he knew what he was doing. I am leaning this way also. Since i feel like no matter which way the clutch and throw out bearing was installed. I should still have resistance when pushing car in gear. There is nothing. I pushed the car in gear when I took the slave cylinder off and pulled arm back as far as possible. I am going to go ahead and pull trans then I'll know for sure. It just pains me to do it. I have everything painted and looking nice. And I know this job is not very easy as to not bang thing up.View attachment 14473
Click to expand...

LOVE your engine lifting cradle!!!
 
Any chance it's an issue with an incorrect or defective clutch disc or PP? I assume you purchased new, name brand parts (Valeo and Sachs are considered to be good quality replacement brands for FIATs).
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Any chance it's an issue with an incorrect or defective clutch disc or PP? I assume you purchased new, name brand parts (Valeo and Sachs are considered to be good quality replacement brands for FIATs).
Click to expand...
I ran into the "wrong part" problem recently when replacing the pressure plate on my 74. The new 74 plate would not fit. It turned out my car was built so late that the engine number, and thus the trans, were actually in the 1975 range and required the 1975 "short" pressure plate. I'm guessing it might have had something to do with the late introduction of the CA cars in1974.
 
I just talked with a mechanic in our shop and he said some pressure plates had wedges in them that must be removed after installing. These were put in to help in bolting pressure plate on. Is this possible?
 
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