Clutch pedal not returning oil dripping down

If this were a job you had to pay a service shop to do, what would be a fair estimate? Anyone have a copy of the shop-hours estimate book?

If you are giving it to someone else, I'd give them a copy of the pages from the workshop manual for reference. Unless they are familiar with the car, they won't have a clue as to what is involved & I wouldn't rely on them to research the shop guide. You have to figure at least double whatever the book time was, assuming that's listed anywhere at this point. I'm sure many shops will look under there & give a very high estimate - simply because it's clearly a PITA of a job....
 
If you are giving it to someone else, I'd give them a copy of the pages from the workshop manual for reference. Unless they are familiar with the car, they won't have a clue as to what is involved & I wouldn't rely on them to research the shop guide. You have to figure at least double whatever the book time was, assuming that's listed anywhere at this point. I'm sure many shops will look under there & give a very high estimate - simply because it's clearly a PITA of a job....
That’s what I was wondering - since nearly everyone says this is a massive PITA job (otherwise, a well designed car). I’ll have to ask my local if he can actually find a shop guide price. For some reason, I think the brake and clutch cylinders were replaced by the PO before selling it to us, but without any service records or a parts list, it’s hard to know. How often, mileage wise, is this required in your opinion?
 
They can go for years with no issues but it can depend a lot on the quality of whatever cylinders were in the replacement. When I did mine, I went with Bernice’s suggestion and had Karp’s resleeve both of my brake masters. BTW, you can replace just the clutch master without dropping the pedal box if you really don’t want to tackle a major rebuild job at this point.
 
That’s what I was wondering - since nearly everyone says this is a massive PITA job (otherwise, a well designed car). I’ll have to ask my local if he can actually find a shop guide price. For some reason, I think the brake and clutch cylinders were replaced by the PO before selling it to us, but without any service records or a parts list, it’s hard to know. How often, mileage wise, is this required in your opinion?

I'd say it has more to do with use & service - if the fluid has been replaced at reasonable intervals, and the vehicle driven on a regular basis (not sitting for ten years) I don't see it being a mileage/scheduled interval item at all. Mine were original when I replaced them @ 130ishK miles, but this car was driven daily for most of it's life prior to my ownership.

Look at my pic previously posted - you can see the cylinders are untreated cast iron - if they are new or within a few years of install, they will look 'fresh' - old/original ones will have a heavy patina & crud around the boots, etc. If the cluthc & brakes work, and they (masters) are not weeping at the boots or actively dripping, why touch them?
 
Thanks - I’ll get up in there with a flash and get busy for the truth. I’m thinking they replaced the clutch and brake reservoirs, bled both systems (as the super wet weep holes underneath the frunk showed, and since they told me they spilled brake fluid), possibly replaced the clutch operating cylinder in the back, replaced the shorter brake hoses leading to the calipers, and possibly the hoses from the brake reservoirs to the master cylinder. But the clutch hose looks original, and at least one cylinder above the steering column is ‘patina’ coated. Man, it’s tough getting good photos up in there unless you’re lying on your back.
 
I’ll have to ask my local if he can actually find a shop guide price.
You can ask, but consider that
1) A shop guide figure will assume a car that's young and regularly maintained, with no allowance for decades-old frozen fittings, lines that have work-hardened over the years, stripping out the heads of the Philips screws that hold the drip trays under the masters, ..., all the many other things that get harder as the car ages. If you can find a shop guide, even sight unseen I'd bet the actual hours will turn out to be twice the shop guide.
2) There's no special expertise involved here, so if you pay someone to do it you're paying them to do something you could do yourself as quickly. The working area is cramped and the position is uncomfortable (see below) but it's going to be just as cramped and uncomfortable for a pro, and the chances that you will value your time at more than a pro would charge are slim.
Man, it’s tough getting good photos up in there unless you’re lying on your back
Generally any non-trivial work under the dash means taking the seat out and lying on your back.
 
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Having done both masters myself... I might be prepared to turn over my first born as payment, for the next time it needs doing.
A better approach is to put your first-born to work on this job instead of you.... think of the movie Snow Piercer :)

Nimble little non-arthritic hands, sharp young-person eyes, and the astounding flexibility of the teenage skeleton... exactly what the job needs. And kidding aside, my teenage daughter was indeed a huge help, earned the right to use one of the X1/9s as her high-school freedom-mobile.
 
That’s what I was wondering - since nearly everyone says this is a massive PITA job (otherwise, a well designed car). I’ll have to ask my local if he can actually find a shop guide price. For some reason, I think the brake and clutch cylinders were replaced by the PO before selling it to us, but without any service records or a parts list, it’s hard to know. How often, mileage wise, is this required in your opinion?

Just a design trade-off. To gain more cargo space in the Frunk, means packing the master cylinders in the way it is done. This was a space utilization design trading off serviceability. Some have made the modifications to install different master cylinders that extend into the Frunk, this makes service much easier, trading off frunk cargo space. In the overall scheme of considerations, servicing of these master cylinders are not a daily or yearly event making this trade off acceptable.

Easy to be critical of something that causes grief at the moment while not considering the long term effects of that short term grief or problem to be resolved.


Bernice
 
A better approach is to put your first-born to work on this job instead of you.... think of the movie Snow Piercer :)

Nimble little non-arthritic hands, sharp young-person eyes, and the astounding flexibility of the teenage skeleton... exactly what the job needs. And kidding aside, my teenage daughter was indeed a huge help, earned the right to use one of the X1/9s as her high-school freedom-mobile.
You're absolutely right, and it's cool that your daughter helped and that you rewarded her accordingly. Unfortunately, in my case the only one of my children that would even be "remotely" interested is my teenage son. And while he's interested in and loves to "talk" about cars, try as I might the old adage that "Youth is wasted on the young" is a fitting description of getting him to translate his passion into action.
 
A better approach is to put your first-born to work on this job instead of you.... think of the movie Snow Piercer :)

Nimble little non-arthritic hands, sharp young-person eyes, and the astounding flexibility of the teenage skeleton... exactly what the job needs. And kidding aside, my teenage daughter was indeed a huge help, earned the right to use one of the X1/9s as her high-school freedom-mobile.
Could be the ONLY reference I’ve ever seen to that film. But an accurate one for sure...
 
Just a design trade-off. To gain more cargo space in the Frunk, means packing the master cylinders in the way it is done. This was a space utilization design trading off serviceability. Some have made the modifications to install different master cylinders that extend into the Frunk, this makes service much easier, trading off frunk cargo space. In the overall scheme of considerations, servicing of these master cylinders are not a daily or yearly event making this trade off acceptable.

Easy to be critical of something that causes grief at the moment while not considering the long term effects of that short term grief or problem to be resolved.


Bernice
Do you have an opinion on the important part of my comment, aka how often / why / symptoms of why this job is performed? As a rookie, my only reference would be the brakes aren’t gripping, or there’s excessive fluid on the garage floor
 
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Do you have an opinion on the important part of my comment, aka how often / why / symptoms of why this job is performed?
With routine fluid changes and regular use, I think of master cylinder replacement as a “done for the next decade or so” job. One of my exxies is still going on it’s original brake master and I’ve been driving it for more than ten years. Another one needed an original master replaced last year after ten years of daily driving. Two others came with failed masters after having sat for many years, I replaced them, the new ones haven’t failed yet.
 
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A better approach is to put your first-born to work on this job instead of you.... think of the movie Snow Piercer :)

Nimble little non-arthritic hands, sharp young-person eyes, and the astounding flexibility of the teenage skeleton... exactly what the job needs. And kidding aside, my teenage daughter was indeed a huge help, earned the right to use one of the X1/9s as her high-school freedom-mobile.
This evidently explains why I never thought rebuilding my clutch and brake masters were such a big deal. I just looked up when I did it and it was almost 40 years ago. I was definitely a bit more nimble then. The originals lasted 50K and I've got about half that mileage on the rebuild. At least now there is some chance it could outlast me so I won't worry about it until I feel brake fluid dripping on my ankles..
 
I last replaced mine in 1993 and have changed fluid with intermittent regularity (I didn’t drive the car for a decade and a half, a poor excuse). The ones used for replacement came from Art Bayless at the time.

The length of time they last is likely a combination of several factors. Quality of the original parts being the most important followed by regular changes of fluid.
 
Do you have an opinion on the important part of my comment, aka how often / why / symptoms of why this job is performed? As a rookie, my only reference would be the brakes aren’t gripping, or there’s excessive fluid on the garage floor

If the hydraulic fluid aka Brake fluid is flushed-changed say every 2-3 years, oem cylinder last a good long time, often decades. What kills hydraulic systems in cars is allowing the stuff to sit collection moisture and slow cooking the life out of the fluid. The corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid eventually gets used up allowing the system to corrode-rot out. That is when the hydraulic system slowly dies.

Example, both Saabs (91/98), and Miata (97) still have their original brake master cylinders. The clutch master in the 98' saab is engineered plastic which is designed to out last metal cylinders due to the lack of corrosion and proper seal design. We change system fluid every 2-3 years and the cars get driven..

Back in the days when time was spent with a friend who wrenched on LOTs of exotic cars, one of the most common MAJOR repair is dead hydraulic systems due to them sitting on a pedestal not driven and hydraulic fluid not changed. The $ to make these hydraulic system function again is a LOT more $ than in the exxe even if the best of parts and all is used.

Another example, Harris car museum had a Citroen SM. They hydraulics (mineral oil based) would fail mandating repairs. The problem completely went away once staff began using the Citroen SM regularly as a daily driver.

Third example, the hydraulics in Lancia# 209 are being completed re-done from zero. Nothing worked as expected from a hydraulic system that has sat with dead brake fluid for decades.


Bernice
 
Excellent. Thanks.
Maintenance and actual use is everything to an old car. Like a horse, or me for that matter, exercise is key to survival.

Plunking down in the BarcaLounger will kill you, not using a car will kill it.
 
Maintenance and actual use is everything to an old car. Like a horse, or me for that matter, exercise is key to survival.

Plunking down in the BarcaLounger will kill you, not using a car will kill it.
Lol. Trying to keep to a twice-weekly driving schedule. So far so good. Which is more I can say for my beloved, but driveway-bagged and neglected Mazda3 hatch.
 
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