How needed a thermostat is for you is completely dependant on your driving conditions. For a track car with occasional street use, it's not needed whatsoever, for example.

And thank you much for the welding offer! I am supposed to have already learned how to TIG Aluminum so I can manufacture my own parts for FSAE but I haven't been able to yet. I am not very good at TIG at the moment. I can kind of MIG but thats...not as nice for many situations.

"Weekend warrior" sort of duty is what I have in mind, although there would certainly be some road trips. It's not going to have AC, so I'm going to avoid traffic as much as possible, and probably won't commute because the worst drivers in the country all live in Columbus, OH.

The FSAE team at OSU does some of its own welding, but judging from the welds that I have seen, they probably shouldn't. They walked anything critical over to us at the FABE lab to weld for them.
 
The two temperature outputs were intended to initiate two different speeds on one fan, but I suppose it could be used to power two separate fans.

Having owned vintage watercooled VWs for many years before reforming a couple of years ago, I am very familiar with the VW fan switches. And although they were wired from the factory to handle fan current directly, I would not trust the switches that are available nowadays to handle the current draw of one fan, let alone two. It is better to use the switch and original wiring to trigger a relay, and use the relay to manage the power to the fan.
I used the 2 temp VW sensor to power two fans. Also used the sensor for signal only, not power. If I could use a Volvo fan with PWM controller, I'd do that any day, the transition in load/speed is far more gradual than with the sensor switching relays for low & high speeds.
 
Without trying to spoil the idea of the VW fan switch, may I ask the question whether the second fan is needed when the rad is in good working order?
With my recored rad, the single fan has no problem cooling the water back down to where the fan switches back off quite quickly. Even in hot weather.
I am running a 1.9 with 11:1 CR.
We don‘t have 105 deg F weather over here, but I am tempted to think that this is one of those „cool“ mods that mainly adds complexity and weight to the car.
 
Without trying to spoil the idea of the VW fan switch, may I ask the question whether the second fan is needed when the rad is in good working order?
With my recored rad, the single fan has no problem cooling the water back down to where the fan switches back off quite quickly. Even in hot weather.
I am running a 1.9 with 11:1 CR.
We don‘t have 105 deg F weather over here, but I am tempted to think that this is one of those „cool“ mods that mainly adds complexity and weight to the car.
I feel that with a perfect cooling system, it may not be necessary on most cars- even if it is close.


In the case of my 85' that came stock with two fans, it absolutely cannot cool itself with just one at low engine rpm- even if it's set to manually run all of the time. I found evidence that the water pump had been replaced at some point and my assumption was that it was clearanced incorrectly. This would also corelate with the "suddenly falling off" behavior as revs go down.

With enough coolant flow rate, one fan truthfully may be enough. I'll be sure to test that at some point- plus the fan speed the system stabilizes at will also be telling of just how much headroom each config (1 vs 2 fans) has. (Since speed will be continuously variable, essentially)
 
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First time with FIAT wiring? :D
I'm at least learning to be hesitant to assume that something crappy isn't original. It's just that every time I see something on a higher order of magnitude I still have to ask to be sure.

Although I do keep in mind that this probably isn't exclusive to Bertone for that time period.
 
Without trying to spoil the idea of the VW fan switch, may I ask the question whether the second fan is needed when the rad is in good working order?
With my recored rad, the single fan has no problem cooling the water back down to where the fan switches back off quite quickly. Even in hot weather.
I am running a 1.9 with 11:1 CR.
We don‘t have 105 deg F weather over here, but I am tempted to think that this is one of those „cool“ mods that mainly adds complexity and weight to the car.
Also, howdy Ulix! I was actually about to reach out to you to see how you've been, ask if your cooling system still has any undesirable behavior going on, and learn more about your setup.
 
So... can't the tinyCWA also control a pwm-controled fan - it appears to have that output?
So, the tinyCWA can do PWM fan control, and I do plan to use this feature for some period of time despite it not being exactly what I am looking for. It's actually quite nice because it's a method of conveying engine coolant temperature to whatever controller I end up making for fan control in the long run ( for example, I can have my controller set the fans to full speed regardless of the radiator outlet temperature once the tinyCWA fan duty cycle hits a certain amount).

However, it uses the engine outlet temperature to dictate what it does with the fans, and that will prevent the fans from being able to instantaneously respond to engine heat load (as accurately*) , and would make the whole constant inlet temp thing impossible, which would also result in less consistent outlet temps. Especially being a mid engine car, the amount of time that would pass between the fans speeding up and a lower temperature registering at the engine inlet would be pretty long.


it's perfectly adequate out of the box. it'll work just fine in the temporary configuration I'll have... but I'm chasing perfection because it's fun and rewarding, and potentially because I'm young, over ambitious, and stupid. :) probably the latter

Also, the delayed feature is part of it, so why do you need an additional timer relay?
So, the whole delay relay idea came from my original implementation using my own controller. I was not going to have a sleep function built into my controller, so that simply installing a different type of relay could handle the after run behavior and prevent the need for a sleep mode.

However, I didn't remove it because:

It's not all that complicated to implement, it's just a standard form factor really with a dial on top.

It sets a hard limit for how long the system can run; once the 3 minutes is up, the system cannot draw a single amp.

The pump pulls a little bit of power in sleep mode, as does the tinyCWA, as with the newer pumps it occasionally has to send a message to the pump telling it to remain in sleep mode and that there is not a communication fault causing no messages to be sent.
(a little bit unclear on this).

Given the X is a work in progress and I'm a student, it'll likely be parked for long enough periods of time that it matters, and I don't want this system to be the reason I have to disconnect the battery.

The fan control system I will have at some point will need a delay off power source for both the Mitsubishi module and the custom controller.




Lastly, the kit without wires precrimped still supplies all the proper terminals? (I understand they are the very small AMP series) - in general I don't like pigtails, since one then has to wire in another set of connections, unless they are supplying enough harness length to reach all devices?)

View attachment 63267
I do not believe enough wire is supplied that the system is complete, but again I'm unsure.

The kit I got (no pre crimped connectors) had every terminal needed, plus a few in case of a mistake. The kit is very well thought out, and the quality of the hardware is fantastic...I've yet to find a single imperfection on the billet tinyCWA itself, and the anodization is worthy of being on full display. I've been very impressed - the price seems much more worth it once you consider it comes with literally everything except the pump.



PXL_20220630_081608343.jpg
 
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Sorry for the absolute barrage of responses. I let the list of things I need to respond to stack up. I haven't even posted about my snail mount cracking but I figure I probably shouldn't spend every waking hour on the forums, though I probably could given the chance.

"Weekend warrior" sort of duty is what I have in mind, although there would certainly be some road trips. It's not going to have AC, so I'm going to avoid traffic as much as possible, and probably won't commute because the worst drivers in the country all live in Columbus, OH.

You could probably get away without a thermostat in that case, based on your use for the car. Though, unless you plan to delete the thermostat housing entirely, I'm not sure it really makes the system too much simpler or more dependable. You'd also need to make a bypass blockoff plate for the thermostat housing, though by the sounds of it your welding skills have that covered. The tinyCWA can display pump speed, I guess you could try it out and if you have overcooling issues in the cooler months you could just shield the radiator as needed.

I'm afraid to tell people what will or won't work, especially when it involves them spending their time or money, and I don't have a way of knowing for absolute certain.
The FSAE team at OSU does some of its own welding, but judging from the welds that I have seen, they probably shouldn't. They walked anything critical over to us at the FABE lab to weld for them.
Thankfully we've had some great welders on the team for the past couple of years...we do everything ourselves: frame, aluminum oil pan, aluminum coolant lines, muffler, aluminum intake manifold (back before we moved to a carbon fiber manifold), and probably some others I've forgotten. We haven't had a failure yet, except for when my shift calibration accidentally blew the muffler apart after a bit of a mishap with the MoTeC software.

Unfortunately our best aluminum welder graduated recently so...time will tell. Our Al welds look attrocious, though we are working with very thin sheet metal. It's mostly my systems that are Aluminum so I really need to learn how to make my own stuff.
 
So, tonight I finally got a couple of minutes to install some of the parts I printed over the weekend.

Everything inside the car is pretty much done now- as the bracket design *works*, though there are a few improvements to be made for the next revision.

All that's left inside is to connect the single ground wire to the unused stud on the firewall, finish some connections, and tap into the fuel pump wire. I am actually on the fence about tapping into the FP power wire at the double relay VS running a wire from the fuel pump + stud to the cabin. Tapping in at the fuel pump is more unnecessary wire, but leaves the factory wiring inside the cabin unmodified- so I think I'll go that route. It's only a relay trigger wire anyway, so the length of wire isn't that much of an issue.

Anyway; some pictures of the bracket on its own, and everything installed. Ignore the mess of wires and unsnipped zip tie...it'll all be cable managed by the end
PXL_20220705_085927951.jpg
PXL_20220705_083958878.NIGHT.jpg



And really, this setup is only semi-permeant. Once the cars restoration is complete, the tinyCWA (by using a ribbon style extension cable, leaving the relay and other electronics in the spare tire well) will be put on display either in a section of a radio slot (if I go custom HU) or somewhere else where it is visible. I will then use its LED display as the coolant temperature gauge, and put the factory coolant temperature sender in the oil galley or pan to provide oil temperature in the gauge cluster.
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I view "overheating" on an X (or spider) in two modes. Is it overheating at highway speeds or overheating in slow traffic. High speed overheating is usually caused by an old ineffective radiator, swapping radiators always fixed that problem for me. Low speed overheating could be thermostat, water pump, etc. If you are moving at a decent speed, say 30mph or above, is the function of the fan not needed as you have good airflow through the radiator?

Some guys love to mess with modifications and I have no problem with that, this is a hobby and anything that keeps you amused is good.
This is what I am experiencing Carl, thanks for this clarification. Would you start with thermostat replacement? I have the temp climbing at slow speeds, and the fans can’t keep up no matter what. Occasionally it drops quickly and nicely for just a bit, then climbs again. The occasional correction of temperature makes me wonder if it’s a pump issue more than thermostat…
 
And really, this setup is only semi-permeant. Once the cars restoration is complete, the tinyCWA (by using a ribbon style extension cable, leaving the relay and other electronics in the spare tire well) will be put on display either in a section of a radio slot (if I go custom HU) or somewhere else where it is visible. I will then use its LED display as the coolant temperature gauge, and put the factory coolant temperature sender in the oil galley or pan to provide oil temperature in the gauge cluster.
.
How does the series of LEDs function as a temp display? One other question, what guided your choice of pump model? Since the 200 series is used for 3L engines, is the assumption that it can more than adequately supply coolant flow for any displacement below 3L?

EDIT - whilst researching the block off plate options for the K24, I found some posts discussing the use of electric pumps - one person had this to say regarding the overall efficiency . Doesn't seem to make so much sense (in terms of his opinion of the pump and potential damage), but what about the increase load on the electrical system, I can't recall now if you factored that - I assume you have.

Screen Shot 2022-07-05 at 8.49.32 PM.png



another poster whose opinions I would trust had this to say (ignoring the issues with the K Tuned hardware) - he is using the 400 series with the 2L Honda drivetrain. Would it make more sense for me to be considering that over the 200 series?

Screen Shot 2022-07-05 at 8.52.54 PM.png
 
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How does the series of LEDs function as a temp display? One other question, what guided your choice of pump model? Since the 200 series is used for 3L engines, is the assumption that it can more than adequately supply coolant flow for any displacement below 3L?

EDIT - whilst researching the block off plate options for the K24, I found some posts discussing the use of electric pumps - one person had this to say regarding the overall efficiency . Doesn't seem to make so much sense (in terms of his opinion of the pump and potential damage), but what about the increase load on the electrical system, I can't recall now if you factored that - I assume you have.

View attachment 63482


another poster whose opinions I would trust had this to say (ignoring the issues with the K Tuned hardware) - he is using the 400 series with the 2L Honda drivetrain. Would it make more sense for me to be considering that over the 200 series?

View attachment 63483
Just a quick question before my full answer- roughly how much power do you make or ever plan to make out of your K24?
 
How does the series of LEDs function as a temp display?

It uses the row of 7 LEDs to indicate coolant temperature, in 5c increments. Once it exceeds target temperature by some amount, it'll flash the lights in some pattern. It also uses the display to indicate status, like fan on/off, and temperature sensor or pump faults. It can also be configured to show pump speed instead.
1657083847500.png


One other question, what guided your choice of pump model? Since the 200 series is used for 3L engines, is the assumption that it can more than adequately supply coolant flow for any displacement below 3L?
So. This part wasn't particularly scientific on my part, for a number of reasons.

First, I was dead set on a Pierburg pump after learning about the tinyCWA. My inner BMW fanboy is likely a part of that, but there are also good reasons.

The integrated pump controller on the CWA lineup is fantastic, and since it uses closed loop speed control (senses impeller speed and adjusts motor power to maintain speed target), it can run extremely slow (18rpm), allowing it to have a huge operating range unlike normal pumps that can only run in a fairly tight range (like how the EWP115's controller goes into pulse mode if less than 60% speed is needed, likely because the pump motor may stall without warning at a lower duty cycle). So I wanted to stay with a CWA.

The CWA200 is the smallest CWA designed for engine cooling, designed originally for the engine in my 330i. The smaller options are all much, much smaller and are used for things like air to water intercooler pumps, so those are out of the question. The CWA200 is also much higher capacity than the EWP115 which I am pretty sure is plenty for a SOHC thanks to @Ulix

The 200 keeps my 260HP 3.0L I6 in my 06' 330i cool under constant 5-7000RPM flat out track days on low speed courses, maintaining a safe temperature across the engine and the "Performance Mode" temperature target of 76c without a hiccup. Even though the X has more coolant flow restriction, it is surely not enough to make it such that it can't keep the temps across a 75hp eggbeater within reason. (yes I just called Lampredis finest an eggbeater, blame the 80s smog standards)

For reference, the CWA200 flows the same amount of water at 6.5psi differential pressure as the EWP115 does at 1.25psi diff. The 400 flows the same amount at 13psi.

So, the CWA200 is likely overkill in itself, and the CWA400 most definitely is, but there's a catch: the CWA400 weighs almost the same, and has nearly identical physical dimensions to the 200, all while being worlds more powerful. The only downside is that if it is extremely overkill and runs very slow all the time, it'll be operating less efficiently than a smaller pump running quicker. (efficiency generally trends upwards and then begins to fall as you near maximum speed)

In your case, where I imagine the K24 has a much beefier alternator than the X1/9s original one, there may not be much of a downside to the larger pump considering the wide speed control range. You can electronically cap its maximum speed via the controller, which is something you may need to do in that case for the after run function (runs max pump speed for 2min). The 400 pulls nearly 40 amps flat out vs the 16a of the 200. It is also more expensive.


EDIT - whilst researching the block off plate options for the K24, I found some posts discussing the use of electric pumps - one person had this to say regarding the overall efficiency . Doesn't seem to make so much sense (in terms of his opinion of the pump and potential damage), but what about the increase load on the electrical system, I can't recall now if you factored that - I assume you have.


View attachment 63482
So the whole head cracking, gasket ruining, knock causing thing is basically what I blabbered about in the beginning: the difference in engine inlet and outlet temp, which is governed by heat load divided by flow rate. That would be an extreme example, but that metric is part of the reason I decided to upgrade the water pump instead of the radiator in the first place. I find it hard to believe that a CWA200 would struggle to maintain an acceptable temperature across a K24 with 240HP, which is 20 less than my 330i with its very overbuilt cooling system, but I also do not want to advise you to do something that could ruin what your time and money has gone into.

The point about efficiency I agree with less. People underestimate just how terrible mechanical water pumps efficiency gets at very high RPM. Even with poor alternator efficiency considered, I would still be comfortable saying the pump efficiency overall would be double digits % better, especially up top when you want it most.

Keep in mind that heat load is closely related to instantaneous horsepower output, not RPM, number of cylinders, or displacement.
another poster whose opinions I would trust had this to say (ignoring the issues with the K Tuned hardware) - he is using the 400 series with the 2L Honda drivetrain. Would it make more sense for me to be considering that over the 200 series?

View attachment 63483
So, I inadvertently covered this above, but while it is most likely fine to use a 200, the downsides of going with the 400 aren't all that substantial apart from potential pump efficiency losses which would likely be tiny compared to the losses of a mechanical pump. Again, I seriously doubt you need the 400 at 240hp, but I am hesitant to speak confidently when I don't know the answer for sure. If you track the car regularly, it may be worth it to just take the plunge.

Also, your pump speed should be dictated by what is necessary to keep the temperature across the engine reasonable. When you start using a monstrous pump to make up for an undersized radiator, you end up wasting power and efficiency... diminishing returns, essentially.

Not sure where the 175LPM minimum on a 2.0L engine is coming from. That's a **** ton. A metric **** ton. As the requirement is dictated by power and not displacement, I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that "2.0 NA" in question is making a hell of a lot more than 240hp, but I could be wrong.
 

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Just my 2 cents worth. I have been using a Davies Craig EWP80 pump in my track X for about 8 years. It is plumbed in to replace the original pump, and is wired to run at full power when ever the engine is on. The original thermostat is still in place and controls coolant flow to an aluminium radiator with no cooling fans. I don't drive in traffic and don't have any cooling issues. It's a 1500 SOHC, 135 hp at the flywheel, used for track day sprint racing and hillclimbs.
 
Without trying to spoil the idea of the VW fan switch, may I ask the question whether the second fan is needed when the rad is in good working order?
With my recored rad, the single fan has no problem cooling the water back down to where the fan switches back off quite quickly. Even in hot weather.
I am running a 1.9 with 11:1 CR.
We don‘t have 105 deg F weather over here, but I am tempted to think that this is one of those „cool“ mods that mainly adds complexity and weight to the car.

That depends on the horsepower being made and the amount of natural air flow available to the radiator. As far as I know, all two-fan cars were AC cars, and the second fan was added to draw air through the condenser and to compensate for lost radiator air flow and increased air temperature due to the condenser being in front of the rad.

On a non-AC car under normal operating conditions, the second fan probably isn't much use. But I think there are places where it might be handy, such as very tight autocross courses where the car is run hard but doesn't achieve a high enough speed for good airflow through the radiator.
 
You could probably get away without a thermostat in that case, based on your use for the car. Though, unless you plan to delete the thermostat housing entirely, I'm not sure it really makes the system too much simpler or more dependable.

Engine application is a Honda K20, where cooling system packaging is concentrated in a very small space on the (vehicle) front side of the engine, so any space saving is helpful. Plus, removing the engine driven water pump could reduce the amount of cutting necessary to install the engine. For simplicity's sake, and to save money compared to buying an off-the-shelf water pump block-off/alternator mounting plate, I would probably keep the factory WP housing, weld a plate over where the WP installed, delete the whole plastic thermostat assembly, and weld a 1.25" tube in the place of the thermostat assembly. Then would come a new tensioner arrangement and a much shorter belt.
 
I am with Jonohh, my seat of my pants engineering view is the smaller unit will be enough for a K24 in reasonable tune (ie not supercharged etc). It is massive overkill for the Fiat 1.5l without doubt.

On one of the naysayers points in the Honda world I agree, reducing the constriction in the system is critical so if the Ktuned plate with its output diameter can be increased to something closer to the diameter of the Fiat 3 way thermostat inlet/outlet and piping diameter to and from the radiator it would be very worthwhile. On much of the rest it doesn’t seem particularly based in reality, more on internet lore.

The likelihood of the engine driven pump cavitating at high rpm (which after all is the whole point of these Honda engines) is very real which has a huge effect on actual pumping efficiency and introduction of air bubbles into the system, about the worst thing imaginable for heat transfer in the system. This gets into the trade offs made in making the OE Honda pump to be sufficient at low speed in traffic and also efficient enough at high rpm to carry away the btu’s without cavitation. Obviously Honda has done a good job of designing it as cooling is not an issue in their cars but some may be operating well out of the envelope Honda intended.
 
On one of the naysayers points in the Honda world I agree, reducing the constriction in the system is critical so if the Ktuned plate with its output diameter can be increased to something closer to the diameter of the Fiat 3 way thermostat inlet/outlet and piping diameter to and from the radiator it would be very worthwhile.

I don't know exactly what the K-Tuned part's ID is, but even if it's only 1", I suspect that it still flows more than enough to meet the cooling needs of even a turbocharged engine. Sure, more is better, but a single 1" restriction in the cooling system shouldn't affect cooling for most of us.
 
Engine application is a Honda K20, where cooling system packaging is concentrated in a very small space on the (vehicle) front side of the engine, so any space saving is helpful. Plus, removing the engine driven water pump could reduce the amount of cutting necessary to install the engine. For simplicity's sake, and to save money compared to buying an off-the-shelf water pump block-off/alternator mounting plate, I would probably keep the factory WP housing, weld a plate over where the WP installed, delete the whole plastic thermostat assembly, and weld a 1.25" tube in the place of the thermostat assembly. Then would come a new tensioner arrangement and a much shorter belt.
That makes much more sense, I see why you're interested in getting rid of it now.
 
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