Dyno runs old and new

speedy fiat

True Classic
I was looking through some old paperwork and realised I've been working on my turbo engine to several years and thought it might be of interest to outline the basic changes from a stock 1.4 Uno Turbo 115hp / 119lb-ft engine as it started in 2013. Although the professional advice I received was generally good, most problems were caused by my lack of knowledge, not fully accepting advice given , having too small a budget, or a combination of all of them.
2013 - install and get it running
2014 - 149hp / 150lb-ft Basic tuning chip, bigger turbo and little else. The engine, which was in hindsight not in good order when I got it, soon complained via cracked head, broken pistons, worns bores,etc
2015 - 179hp / 180lb-ft using rebuilt engine, but using same basic tuning chip as well as even bigger turbo, charge cooler and other parts. However, probably beyond the ability of the engine management system to safely control the fuelling, boost control, detonation control, etc
2017 - No increase in power, but installed Maxx ecu and associated ancillaries which for the first time allowed accurate control of the fuelling, ignition, etc. Engine breathing more than it should. Thought that damage caused by earlier poor engine management.
2019 - Engine breathing to a level to start causing concern. Engine stripped down and rebuilt with forged pistons and rods.
2020 - 207hp / 210lb-ft. Engine fuelling, ignition control, cylinder pressures, oil pressure, etc, etc. all under accurate control. Performing very comfortably within possible limits.
While I now have the engine I originally hoped for, it has cost a lot of money and time. However, how many of the projects that we have ultimately succeeded in/enjoyed would have got off the ground if a truthful assessment of our talent and/or budgets had been made at the start?
The saying "...the cost is long forgotten long before the quality" comes to mind
 
207hp / 210lb-ft.
Nice! I've always felt around 200hp and 200lb-ft is about ideal for the X.

So looking back at your experience, if you did it all again starting with a stock engine in good condition. What items would you definitely change? I think the most obvious one would be the aftermarket ECU. And next - in terms of performance - the turbo and intercooler. But how about after that? Pistons? Or what else do you think are essential to make the stock engine last with 207hp/210lb-ft.?
 
I am soon ready for the Dyno. I did all of the above on my UT 1.3 except upgrading pistons and rods. However, got new rings, bearings and valves. I trust stock internals will handle the load, I am more worried about the gearbox.
 
Nice! I've always felt around 200hp and 200lb-ft is about ideal for the X.

So looking back at your experience, if you did it all again starting with a stock engine in good condition. What items would you definitely change? I think the most obvious one would be the aftermarket ECU. And next - in terms of performance - the turbo and intercooler. But how about after that? Pistons? Or what else do you think are essential to make the stock engine last with 207hp/210lb-ft.?
Rebuild/recondition the engine from the start - new bearings, improvements to the head and valves, rebore, forged rods and pistons, etc. Significant upgrade to the internals of the standard 1.4 turbo, much bigger injectors, bigger exhaust, much bigger intercooler/chargecooler, a way to get rid of all the extra heat and most importantly a decent ecu and associated sensors. Keep well below the limits until you are fully knowledgeable about your system, whatever the state of tune. Find a engine tuner who has experience with your ecu, turbo, etc and will be bold enough keep your ambitions realistic. Sounds so obvious now I write it down 😁
The boost at 207hp is 1.3bar. Very derivable from low revs with no discernable lag. If I'm feeling timid I have two other settings of 180hp and 160hp,
I hope it goes without saying that the rest of the car has to be up to the increase in performance with improved suspension, brakes, tyres, no sloppy steering etc, otherwise a huge accident is on the cards.
 
Rebuild/recondition the engine from the start - new bearings, improvements to the head and valves, rebore, forged rods and pistons, etc. Significant upgrade to the internals of the standard 1.4 turbo, much bigger injectors, bigger exhaust, much bigger intercooler/chargecooler, a way to get rid of all the extra heat and most importantly a decent ecu and associated sensors. Keep well below the limits until you are fully knowledgeable about your system, whatever the state of tune. Find a engine tuner who has experience with your ecu, turbo, etc and will be bold enough keep your ambitions realistic. Sounds so obvious now I write it down 😁
The boost at 207hp is 1.3bar. Very derivable from low revs with no discernable lag. If I'm feeling timid I have two other settings of 180hp and 160hp,
I hope it goes without saying that the rest of the car has to be up to the increase in performance with improved suspension, brakes, tyres, no sloppy steering etc, otherwise a huge accident is on the cards.
Sounds like what I'd expect to hear. ;)
The 1.3 bar boost (19 psi) would actually be pretty high for a street car, but I realize yours isn't a street car. So I'm thinking a slightly milder (street) set up (say max 10 psi = .7 bar) might even work without forged pistons and rods. Provided the other preparations are done; fresh engine with mild head work, correct injectors and ECU, big exhaust and boost-cooler, etc. I'm not sure what power that would make, maybe close to 130-140? Do you know off hand what boost you are at for the 160hp level?
 
Bjorn, I'm sure you've said this before but I don't recall at the moment. Which turbo are you using? And how much boost are you planning to run?
My specs:
-1.3l with stock internals (new bearings, valves, rings)
-TD04HL14T Turbo
-Charge cooler
-440cc injectors
-33/73 9,5mm lift cam
-MaxECU Race
-Boost controller
-All new sensors and triggers (incl knock)
-High flow exhaust

I don't know how much boost I will have yet. For mapping I will turn to a tuner with lots of experience in MaxECU (but probably no experience in Fiat UT). How much boost is mostly a matter of detonation. I am aiming for 200 hp, even more if it is safe.
 
I don't know how much boost I will have yet. For mapping I will turn to a tuner with lots of experience in MaxECU (but probably no experience in Fiat UT). How much boost is mostly a matter of detonation. I am aiming for 200 hp, even more if it is safe.
I believe the T04 turbo is fairly close in size to the stock UT unit. But of course the T04 is much more modern. I'll be looking forward to the results. I'm using the experiences of you guys to get an idea of what my stock engine turbo project might do. ;)
 
I believe the T04 turbo is fairly close in size to the stock UT unit.
The TD04 is bigger but fits well. Note that they may differ between Subaru, Saab, Volvo... Mine is from a Volvo S40 T4 1st gen. However, the wastegate actuator is too big and hits the rear wall in a X. I found an aftermarket actuator with a smaller bell that fits much better.

I have don't have much results to report yet, but for sure the tiny IHI turbo cannot provide more than 140-150 hp and TD04HL14T 250-260 hp so it is a huge difference in performance. I will let you know results from dyno when time comes.
IMG_20191101_145119.jpg

As you see they differ in size (specially on the turbine side not shown)
 
Sounds like what I'd expect to hear. ;)
The 1.3 bar boost (19 psi) would actually be pretty high for a street car, but I realize yours isn't a street car. So I'm thinking a slightly milder (street) set up (say max 10 psi = .7 bar) might even work without forged pistons and rods. Provided the other preparations are done; fresh engine with mild head work, correct injectors and ECU, big exhaust and boost-cooler, etc. I'm not sure what power that would make, maybe close to 130-140? Do you know off hand what boost you are at for the 160hp level?
Finally got a round to getting this info. I've three levels of boost, with the lowest one producing 166hp for 0.75 bar boost.
I dug out some old records of when I started this exercise six years ago to compare with the latest efforts. I fully admit that at the start there the enthusiasm was far higher that the knowledge and budget, hopefully I have these in balance now. People have sometimes said its a shame that Fiat didn't get more power as standard, but given the time and money this has taken I can fully appreciate why manufacturers keep things simple! Having said that its still cheap for the performance I've got
The standard is 115hp. In 2013 I wrung 147hp out of the engine in a very unsustainable way and today we are getting 207hp in a way that is, by general consent by knowledgeable people, sustainable within the caveats of serious engine tuning.

2013 - red line 6500rpm
3500rpm HP=100 Torque=150
5000rpm HP=140 Torque=145
6000rpm HP=147 Torque=120

2020 - red line 7500rpm
3500rpm HP=140 Torque=140
5000rpm HP=205 Torque=190
6000rpm HP=207 Torque=180
 
I've three levels of boost, with the lowest one producing 166hp for 0.75 bar boost.
For us Yanks, .75 bar is about 10psi, which is the highest I plan to go with stock internals (8 or 9 is even safer). Funny how 1 or 2 pounds can make or break things. But I anticipated (hoped) that the 8-10 psi range would get me a actual 150 HP, so your results are very encouraging. Even more important to me, and more encouraging looking at your numbers, is the torque. A boosted engine makes great low and mid range torque. That is what I'm really after. And your torque numbers are excellent. This should make the X much more drivable and livable over a stock or mildly modified "NA" SOHC engine. That's my goal - not ultimate high performance.

Could you offer your impression of the car when running at your first level (.75 bar)? Such as it's overall feel, drivability, satisfaction, relative to a stock X.

As for the cost. I've purchased the majority of everything I need to make the low boost turbo conversion. The few things I'm holding off on (just in case my plans change any) are known expenses. So I have a fairly accurate idea of what the total cost will be. For now I'll just say it is much less than trying to get anywhere near that level of power from a 'NA' SOHC. And in my opinion it will be much more street friendly than a "built" NA engine. Furthermore, given all of the measures I'm taking, the reliability (with it's low boost) should be at least as good as a performance SOHC.
 
Just a note from another UT owner, I run 1 bar of boost on my stock Uno Turbo with no problems on pump gas. Just an FYI.
 
2020 - red line 7500rpm
3500rpm HP=140 Torque=140
5000rpm HP=205 Torque=190
6000rpm HP=207 Torque=180
Impressing results. Is it whp or bhp?
Not much happening above 6000 rpm?

I am very close to finish now. First start and basic mapping next week and then time for dyno/mapping. I hope to reach your figures, but mine is a Mk1 so maybe not.
 
Impressing results. Is it whp or bhp?
Not much happening above 6000 rpm?

I am very close to finish now. First start and basic mapping next week and then time for dyno/mapping. I hope to reach your figures, but mine is a Mk1 so maybe not.
The figures are BHP and ft/lb torque. With 2013 version at the red line (6500rpm) its still producing 140hp, but the torque is falling off rapidly at 110ft/lb. The earlier version was on standard internals and a 6500rpm red line. The latest version has forged pistons and rods and a 7500rpm red line. At a comparable 6500rpm figures are 200hp and 160ft/lb, at the red line 175hp and 125ftlb.
Even at the lowest level of boost the car is very fast and great fun to drive, but the capabilities of the cars design (assuming you have considered the brakes, tyres and suspension) seems to handle it very well. To be honest the highest level of boost is not that useable on the road as the horizon, corners, none legal speed limits, other cars and general road hazards come up so fast - it's still accelerating hard over 100mph. On the track that's all good but not responsible to drive to its full potential on the public road.
 
Even at the lowest level of boost the car is very fast and great fun to drive, but the capabilities of the cars design (assuming you have considered the brakes, tyres and suspension) seems to handle it very well. To be honest the highest level of boost is not that useable on the road as the horizon, corners, none legal speed limits, other cars and general road hazards come up so fast - it's still accelerating hard over 100mph. On the track that's all good but not responsible to drive to its full potential on the public road.
Thank you for the feedback. This is exactly what I expected to hear. And it is assuring to think that my goals may likely be met with the build plan I have.

I agree completely, for a street (road) use only application - in a safe and responsible manor - a very high power level isn't practical for most vehicles, but especially not for a vintage car with old technology. Modern high tech cars have all sorts of specialized electronic assistance and are engineered to use that level of performance. I realize lots of drivers believe they are capable of handling it and think they have the skills to overcome any situation, but the statistics prove otherwise. Regardless of personal opinion on this, I'm of the impression that over 200 hp (just as a general reference number) is about the safe/practical limit for the X on the streets. As you say, track (off road) applications are a completely different scenario.
 
I have to ask, why the red line of 7,500 rpm? With forged internals it should be good for 10,000 rpm.
I might have misread the data, but I believe his power band drops off above 6500 rpm, which could be a function of many design factors. So there's no need to shorten the engine's life by revving higher than that...especially with a boosted application where internal thermal loads skyrocket under those conditions. But that's only my assumption.
 
Both UT and X1/9 have a stroke of 63.9mm. X has a redline at 7k and UT 6.5k. I see no reason why they differ.10k would be too much for stock valves/springs but 8-8.5k with lighter and stronger internals wouldn't be a problem I assume.
 
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