Electric X1/9?
- Thread starter pafiat
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Hybridfiat
Power costs money, more power cost more money
I got all enthusiastic last year after watching Wheeler Dealers convert a Maserati Quatroporte to electric.
Then I rang around and got the electric vehicle supplier people here in Perth.
The bloke had all the bits: the motor, batteries, controllers and loom. But he essentially told me not to bother until batteries become less bulky and heavy. The weight penalty to have lotsa power and do at least 100kms was huge!
He had reservations about being able to fit them all in too.
If someone else does it I'll be fascinated to read about it.
Oh as an aside, I contacted the company doing research and development in Oxford at Oxford Uni UK as they have a really fine electric motor.
No reply!
I'll watch this thread with interest.
Then I rang around and got the electric vehicle supplier people here in Perth.
The bloke had all the bits: the motor, batteries, controllers and loom. But he essentially told me not to bother until batteries become less bulky and heavy. The weight penalty to have lotsa power and do at least 100kms was huge!
He had reservations about being able to fit them all in too.
If someone else does it I'll be fascinated to read about it.
Oh as an aside, I contacted the company doing research and development in Oxford at Oxford Uni UK as they have a really fine electric motor.
No reply!
I'll watch this thread with interest.
Hi Hybrid, interesting to hear there is an EV supplier here in OZ. My initial research was based around the stuff supplied by EVWEST in the US. You can certainly buy motors that will provide significantly more power than most exxies but, as observed, the batt weight is way up there. Not sure what the net weight gain would be once you delete all the oily bits and ancillaries. Time for more calculations.
dragonsgate
True Classic
I have been waiting for someone to bring electric's up again.
I try to keep a low profile here but have happily running an electric X19 since Jan 2000.
My setup is a poor-man's version but has been pretty reliable after the first year of working out the bugs.
At the time of the conversion I was top of the line but now days an antique in the motor and battery department.
My X is an 84 and I am running an advance DC series wound 9" motor bolted to the stock 5 speed, 144 volts nom and a open revolt 500 amp controller that equals 72Kw.
98 hp and 184 pounds of torque from 0 to about 3000 rpm.
I have a 1000 amp controller that produces 196 hp and 368 lbs. torque but it tended to break things so 500 amps is plenty for a grocery getter.
About 3 seconds faster than stock with a top end of 90 mph that takes a lot of straight flat ground which is about 22 miles slower than stock.
I hate to admit it but I still have FLA's, 18 eight volt Trojans that brought the car up to a 3100 pound curb weight.
At that weight car performed at the numbers I just gave.
I have shaved the weight down to 2530 with a lot of drillium and fiberglass.
If I ever did bite the bullet and buy some lithiums I could shave up to 500 pounds off.
Unless you have a lot of disposable income stick with gas.
I spent about $9000 including batteries on the initial conversion.
Today's market an AC motor and the trimmings would cost about the same but, unless you can live with very limited range, lithium is the only way to go and that can cost from $7K for a modest pack that could get 50-60 mile range to $14+k for a 100 + mile range. Those are rough estimates.
When I first did my build lead was the only option as anything else was still experimental, very explosive and started in the $35000 range.
I was just in my fifties then and sometimes wished I had more than a thirty mile range but now days it is more than enough because I don't really want to go any where and my daily drive is 12-15 miles round trip.
Now that you got me started I could fill up this form yakking but will try to close with just a few thoughts.
I have owned one or more Fiat since 1975 and enjoyed working on them.
Nothing was more enjoyable than the sound running one up past red line.
Since I went electric I am loathe to get my hands greasy anymore.
I don't miss the oil changes.
I don't miss standing in gas stations. (If you have ever observed the lackadaisical attitude other people have around flammable gas you know what I mean.)
I do like going 70 mph and being able to hold a conversation in a normal voice. (no yelling or asking what did you say)
I like the torque, coming out of a turn and instantly accelerating with no lag.
Mechanogeek
True Classic
Thanks, Dragonsgate!
You said more that was worthwhile in one post than I have seen in MANY MANY EV conversion lengthy web site posts and forums. Succinct and applicable. Thanks again!
You said more that was worthwhile in one post than I have seen in MANY MANY EV conversion lengthy web site posts and forums. Succinct and applicable. Thanks again!
dragonsgate
True Classic
I first read about the history of electric cars in the late 60's when I was in the navy.
The first cars were electric in 1890'or there about.
It was interesting but I didn't give it any more thought until after Jan 1980 when my wife and I moved to the high desert in SoCal where we built a geodesic dome house and lived completely off the grid for the next ten years.
I built my own wind generator and had a small solar panel setup among other things.
Of course I subscribed to Mother Earth Mag and one of the articles was about a guy that converted an Opal GT into a hybrid electric.
Saw an electric dragster at an earth show in Los Angels around 1984 and saw my first electric car conversion about a year later.
It was an X19 of all things with a Jet Started Motor and had four deep cycle 12 volt batteries.
I didn't get to ride in it but saw it lay a healthy 10 feet of rubber.
I was totally wanting to build an electric car by then but it wasn't until Nov 1999 that I finally got started on one.
A good reliable DIY electric car is a little more than just a bunch of car batteries wired together.
The first cars were electric in 1890'or there about.
It was interesting but I didn't give it any more thought until after Jan 1980 when my wife and I moved to the high desert in SoCal where we built a geodesic dome house and lived completely off the grid for the next ten years.
I built my own wind generator and had a small solar panel setup among other things.
Of course I subscribed to Mother Earth Mag and one of the articles was about a guy that converted an Opal GT into a hybrid electric.
Saw an electric dragster at an earth show in Los Angels around 1984 and saw my first electric car conversion about a year later.
It was an X19 of all things with a Jet Started Motor and had four deep cycle 12 volt batteries.
I didn't get to ride in it but saw it lay a healthy 10 feet of rubber.
I was totally wanting to build an electric car by then but it wasn't until Nov 1999 that I finally got started on one.
A good reliable DIY electric car is a little more than just a bunch of car batteries wired together.
Hybridfiat
Power costs money, more power cost more money
Yes I found them on Google along with the reference to the Oxford motor.
I like the idea of electric and power and all, but the weight and financial cost is too much at the moment when balanced against range and convenience.
Electric vehicles do not go far if driven normally; with no regard to battery consumption.
dragonsgate
True Classic
The instant torque of an electric can be quite intoxicating and with lithium batteries the weight of a finished conversion can beclose to or the same or sometimes less than the original car.
That last part is where the cost comes in.
You can wrap so much money up in a conversion that it would be more cost effective to buy a factory made EV.
Range is not so much the problem as where to get the next tank of electricity.
What convenience? Air conditioning, heat, power breaks, little bells that go ding for some stupid reason?
Those can be addressed it you have enough (thumb and forefinger rubbing together) cash.
With any ICE car, if you romp it gas mileage will go down, so with electrics, the easier you drive the better the mileage.
I don't know much about them but Fiat makes an electric 500 that I have heard is pretty nice.
I have said this in an earlier conversion here, If you have a nice running Fiat leave it alone.
If you have an X or any other car that is not running and you want to tinker then an electric conversion might be for you.
There have been EV enthusiasts hanging on to the concept pretty much from when the first ones came out in the 1800's.
When I first did my conversion at the end of the 90's there were more options on the market and now days you can just about buy everything you need to put one together.
I have had to fix a few things from hot rodding like a blown controller and a poorly designed motor coupler but most of my maintenance is keeping the old X19 together.
I like talking about electric cars but this is an X19 forum after all so I am going to do my best to keep quite after this but will leave you with some advice should you decide to jump into the DIY EV world.
First don't go tearing up a nice X19.
Have a budget and be willing to go over it.
Make sure you are willing to stick with the project lest you end up wasting a bunch of time and money.
A newer car is best but vintage tin can be more fun to drive in many ways.
You don't have to be an electronic genius, just find a reputable dealer and they will help you get the right parts with directions of how to put them together.
Hey Dragon,
Why not start a thread to document your conversion? Even though you did it years ago, it is obviously still of interest. X1/9s with a K20, Multiair or Ecotec are still X1/9s, so an EV X1/9 is still in the family as well. It might even make it into the Best Of Xweb engine swap listing.
My sister used to work for Disney out in Burbank and sent me these pictures on a really nice looking 74 EV-X she came across in the parking garage.
thanks everyone for your thoughts, particularly Dragonsgate for practical insight. Any chance you could post some photos of how you mounted stuff please?
Hybrid, are you comfortable forwarding details of the Oz EV provider and maybe the info they gave you. PM if you don't want to post.
This all confirms what I have already discovered, money is the determining factor. This is probably the case with other upgrades such as K20 also!
My random thoughts so far are thus:
A useable setup will be around $20k oz dollars (realistic?)
I think it can be done with minimal alteration to a standard car. Certainly much less metalwork than a K20 swap.
I love my exxies, I have two and use them regularly. An X1/9 is such a pretty, fun car that the powerplant is not that important and there is no new electric (or other) car on this planet that comes close to their style. This means if you want to go electric (for any number of reasons) conversion is a good way to go.
Driving down the road at 70mph whilst holding a civilised conversation sounds appealing.
There is a strong movement occuring whithin the classic car ranks to provide EV conversions. Certainly at the top end of town, manufacturers such as Jaguar and Aston Martin are doing it and companies such as EV West are providing bolt in kits for VWs, Porsches and even a Toyota MR2.
Having been involved in several "projects" over the years I can echo Dragons comment that you have to be 100% committed to seeing it through. We have all seen many unfinished efforts for sale. That is just someones wasted time and money.
So.. Am I ready to stump up that much dosh? I am definitely interested. I think I will go into it in a lot more detail next. Do some design, determine the feasibility of mounting things, scaling motors, batts etc and get a more accurate handle on cost.
More comments from the forum (and elsewhere) welcome.
Hybrid, are you comfortable forwarding details of the Oz EV provider and maybe the info they gave you. PM if you don't want to post.
This all confirms what I have already discovered, money is the determining factor. This is probably the case with other upgrades such as K20 also!
My random thoughts so far are thus:
A useable setup will be around $20k oz dollars (realistic?)
I think it can be done with minimal alteration to a standard car. Certainly much less metalwork than a K20 swap.
I love my exxies, I have two and use them regularly. An X1/9 is such a pretty, fun car that the powerplant is not that important and there is no new electric (or other) car on this planet that comes close to their style. This means if you want to go electric (for any number of reasons) conversion is a good way to go.
Driving down the road at 70mph whilst holding a civilised conversation sounds appealing.
There is a strong movement occuring whithin the classic car ranks to provide EV conversions. Certainly at the top end of town, manufacturers such as Jaguar and Aston Martin are doing it and companies such as EV West are providing bolt in kits for VWs, Porsches and even a Toyota MR2.
Having been involved in several "projects" over the years I can echo Dragons comment that you have to be 100% committed to seeing it through. We have all seen many unfinished efforts for sale. That is just someones wasted time and money.
So.. Am I ready to stump up that much dosh? I am definitely interested. I think I will go into it in a lot more detail next. Do some design, determine the feasibility of mounting things, scaling motors, batts etc and get a more accurate handle on cost.
More comments from the forum (and elsewhere) welcome.
I have a keen interest in converting one of my three X1/9's to electric. I own a 2015 Fiat 500e and it currently has 67,000 100% trouble free miles on it now. The 500e is such a fun car to drive.
My thoughts on converting the X1/9 to electric involve stealing all of the necessary parts from a totalled Fiat 500e with low miles on it. Does anyone know how hard it would be to use the parts from a wrecked 500e to make an electric X1/9? I know that Tony K in Ontario has had to do a ton of work to get the Abarth engine to work regarding the ecu problems involved. Does the Fiat 500e have a similar problem with the ecu as the Abarth? If the ecu is not a issue or it is easily dealt with then I would think that the electric motor, transaxle and other components from the 500e should be able to made to fit into the X1/9 without too much problem. Thoughts anyone?
My thoughts on converting the X1/9 to electric involve stealing all of the necessary parts from a totalled Fiat 500e with low miles on it. Does anyone know how hard it would be to use the parts from a wrecked 500e to make an electric X1/9? I know that Tony K in Ontario has had to do a ton of work to get the Abarth engine to work regarding the ecu problems involved. Does the Fiat 500e have a similar problem with the ecu as the Abarth? If the ecu is not a issue or it is easily dealt with then I would think that the electric motor, transaxle and other components from the 500e should be able to made to fit into the X1/9 without too much problem. Thoughts anyone?
dragonsgate
True Classic
OK you are twisting my arm so I'll add some more.
About the money, I have done a few cars over the years and the motto as been if you want to platy you got to pay.
Do not do a conversion to save money.
If you are in the market for a new car then a 500e like gwbfiat's might be the car for you.
In the last few years there have been quite a few DIY'ers pulling parts and whole drive trains from wrecked factory EV's
Volkswagen has come out with conversion setup for the older beatles.
There was one X with a VW engine post here so maybe one of those would work in a Fiat.
I have not kept up with things in a while now so have no idea of what will fit and how to do it.
I do know there are components that help hooking up to ECU's.
My conversion is old compared to what is available now but most people still think I am an electrical engineering genius and if I keep my mouth shut they never realize I am not.
I have done a lot to personalize my car and get a lot of looks and compliments and comments on the power source but nothing like when gas when over $4 a gallon.
Just a simple trip to the grocery store it would take extra time from all the people stopping me and asking about how to get an electric car.
Things have calmed down now but can't say that some times I don't miss the attention.
Here are some old pictures of some of the parts.
About the money, I have done a few cars over the years and the motto as been if you want to platy you got to pay.
Do not do a conversion to save money.
If you are in the market for a new car then a 500e like gwbfiat's might be the car for you.
In the last few years there have been quite a few DIY'ers pulling parts and whole drive trains from wrecked factory EV's
Volkswagen has come out with conversion setup for the older beatles.
There was one X with a VW engine post here so maybe one of those would work in a Fiat.
I have not kept up with things in a while now so have no idea of what will fit and how to do it.
I do know there are components that help hooking up to ECU's.
My conversion is old compared to what is available now but most people still think I am an electrical engineering genius and if I keep my mouth shut they never realize I am not.
I have done a lot to personalize my car and get a lot of looks and compliments and comments on the power source but nothing like when gas when over $4 a gallon.
Just a simple trip to the grocery store it would take extra time from all the people stopping me and asking about how to get an electric car.
Things have calmed down now but can't say that some times I don't miss the attention.
Here are some old pictures of some of the parts.
TonyK
True Classic
One consideration, if need be would be to look at the Copart Auctions and purchase a Fiat 500 E for parts. That would give you a set of batteries, motor and electrics that are modern and proven. I know that the Fiat 500 Abarth engine will fit in an X1/9, the 500 E parts will have to be similar.
Just saying and thinking.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Just saying and thinking.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Andy
True Classic
I too have been contemplating work needed to use a Fiat 500e drive train in an X.
I think the controllers and engine trans should fit without much customization to the X. Likely will lose the rear trunk to controller and associated gear.
Battery placement is the big question, on the 500e it is under the car, and I don't see that happening on a X.
I don't know enough about the battery to know if it can be re-assembled to a different shape and fit in the front trunk area.
The 500e is a pretty heavy car too, I would expect the X to gain weight in this type of conversion.
I can appreciate the work done on the car pictured above, but I can't say I like the aesthetics of it. I'm sure that is done to accommodate battery, but for my taste is too squared off. Just my opinion.
I think the controllers and engine trans should fit without much customization to the X. Likely will lose the rear trunk to controller and associated gear.
Battery placement is the big question, on the 500e it is under the car, and I don't see that happening on a X.
I don't know enough about the battery to know if it can be re-assembled to a different shape and fit in the front trunk area.
The 500e is a pretty heavy car too, I would expect the X to gain weight in this type of conversion.
I can appreciate the work done on the car pictured above, but I can't say I like the aesthetics of it. I'm sure that is done to accommodate battery, but for my taste is too squared off. Just my opinion.
dragonsgate
True Classic
Opinion noted and respected. The car is 10" shorter in the front. I sometimes think I should have left the nose on but most of the time I like it.
When I first did the conversion I used twelve 12 Volt deep cycles and while they weighed less they took up more room than the eighteen 8 Volt.
The batteries took up all the room in the trunk and top half of engine compartment and all of the frunk up to where the radiator fit.
That was a lot of weight in the tail end and in front of the front wheels.
With the 8 volts taking up less room I managed to keep the weight between the front and rear wheels.
The weight ratio is about 50/50.
With the challenge of shaving weight and all that empty space where the rad was I kind of went nuts.
When all was said and done with the chopping and glass work I managed to drop 60 pounds up front and another 30 on the rear.
The photo does make it look kind of stubby.
Here is a profile.
When I first did the conversion I used twelve 12 Volt deep cycles and while they weighed less they took up more room than the eighteen 8 Volt.
The batteries took up all the room in the trunk and top half of engine compartment and all of the frunk up to where the radiator fit.
That was a lot of weight in the tail end and in front of the front wheels.
With the 8 volts taking up less room I managed to keep the weight between the front and rear wheels.
The weight ratio is about 50/50.
With the challenge of shaving weight and all that empty space where the rad was I kind of went nuts.
When all was said and done with the chopping and glass work I managed to drop 60 pounds up front and another 30 on the rear.
The photo does make it look kind of stubby.
Here is a profile.
Many years ago I drove about 45 minutes from home to look at a 75X. When I got there I found a decent car that had been converted to electric, then reverted to its original 1300. There were still a couple clues to the previous electrification project. Odd little brackets or holes in odd places. The little cartoon on the rrunk lid, that's one of the big clues.
Dine
Nico
So it sounds to me like you lot have achieved the EV conversion but what I want to know is has anyone ever done an HEV conversion? I've been looking into it and may pull the trigger, to be honest. This wouldn't help my top speed or anything but I'm imagining my 0-60 would be insane compared to the stock 10-12 seconds it takes us.
dragonsgate
True Classic
Not much room in an X to go hybrid.
A couple years after I got my car on the road and most of the bugs worked out I thought about a pusher trailer.
There were a few that used VW rabbit front ends as an ICE pusher for extended drives.
Had a trailer started the decided I didn't like the idea of having a powered trailer pushing me around.
It was going to look something like this.