Electrical and gauges issues

81x

81x

X'ing Fixing
Hi,
Was driving for around 40 min's today and few issues that were quite rare, became more obvious.
In general, it seems to be some electrical cut out:
1. When starting up, sometimes on ACC nothing happen and no cluster lights will appear. Engine will turn but won't start.
After few attempts, it will be ok.
It's coming and going, no pattern.
2. While driving, the engine cuts off.
The tachometer going to Zero and battery light flashes.

Another problem is that the gauges don't work properly.
Tachometer shows around 2000 RPM lower (saw the recent thread about it); fuel gauge almost always off;
Temp gauge mostly down and when correct - it could jump around;
Oil pressure gauge never worked.
Radio and clock stopped working some time ago.

Fuses seemes to be fine, at least one of the ground wire is new (didn't check the one under the expansion tank, as Dan Sarandrea pointed).
Is there any relation between all this?

Thank you!
 
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The 81X still has the old style "C clip" fuse block IIRC. Where a old school ceramic fuse is held in place by the tension of the clip contacts. I had a 79 that shared a couple of your issues. I was cruising down the highway and the tach dropped to zero and the engine dies. I pushed in the clutch and started coasting for the shoulder while trying to restart the engine. No luck. On a whim, I whacked the base of the glove box near the fuse panel. Then the car started, tach worked and I made it home.

On investigating the fuses I found that while many were secure in there clips, a few could spin freely and one was about to fall out. I pulled each fuse and bent the C clip contacts to provide more tension when the fuse was reinstalled. On that car, I never had those issues again.
 
Thanks Jim, you're right about the fuse style.
I'll look it up.
I recall the worst "hiccups" happen while going up a hill.
 
Another little maintenance action to consider with the European style ceramic fuses is to clean all of those 'clip' contacts as you retension them (per Jim's suggestion). They become oxidized (tarnished) over time and I've found that to cause minor issues. A small (brass) wire wheel in a Dremel makes short work of this. The ends of the fuses (depending on the brand/construction) can also get oxidized and should be replaced if they have been there for many years. Not that this is severe enough to cause the extent of your issues, but something to do while working on the fusebox.

Maybe double check every ground contact again. And not just the big "spider" clusters, but also the other ends where they connect to the components (e.g. gauge cluster, etc). While reading your description I also thought of the common issues with the ignition (key) switch itself. If nothing else works then consider looking into the threads that discuss it.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Another little maintenance action to consider with the European style ceramic fuses is to clean all of those 'clip' contacts as you retension them (per Jim's suggestion). They become oxidized (tarnished) over time and I've found that to cause minor issues. A small (brass) wire wheel in a Dremel makes short work of this. The ends of the fuses (depending on the brand/construction) can also get oxidized and should be replaced if they have been there for many years. Not that this is severe enough to cause the extent of your issues, but something to do while working on the fusebox.

Maybe double check every ground contact again. And not just the big "spider" clusters, but also the other ends where they connect to the components (e.g. gauge cluster, etc). While reading your description I also thought of the common issues with the ignition (key) switch itself. If nothing else works then consider looking into the threads that discuss it.
Click to expand...
The contacts on the ceramic fuses themselves should definitely be cleaned of oxidation, especially if old. I've found the same problem with the glass style fuses on occasion as well. The fuse element inside the glass is only connected to the end contacts by being bent over the end of the glass tube and having the cap shoved on it, and over time can result in a high resistance. I've found a good cleaner for electrical contacts is Caig DeoxIT. Works especially well if you are trying to avoid abrasion of the contacts while cleaning them - switch contacts, potentiometers, etc.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Another little maintenance action to consider with the European style ceramic fuses is to clean all of those 'clip' contacts as you retension them (per Jim's suggestion). They become oxidized (tarnished) over time and I've found that to cause minor issues. A small (brass) wire wheel in a Dremel makes short work of this. The ends of the fuses (depending on the brand/construction) can also get oxidized and should be replaced if they have been there for many years. Not that this is severe enough to cause the extent of your issues, but something to do while working on the fusebox.

Maybe double check every ground contact again. And not just the big "spider" clusters, but also the other ends where they connect to the components (e.g. gauge cluster, etc). While reading your description I also thought of the common issues with the ignition (key) switch itself. If nothing else works then consider looking into the threads that discuss it.
Click to expand...

TNX Jeff.
I tried to look up for similar threads but couldn't find one, maby because of lack in English:oops:
Looked up in my Haynes manual, they don't refer to the "spider" grounds, can you please point me to those?
I already cleaned what i could find, but i will give the fuse clips a better treatment with my good old dremel.
Anyone thought of upgrading the fuse box to a new style fuses?
 
Sorry, my use of the term "spider" cluster isn't the proper name. I'm referring to the round multiple grounding pod connections where they attach to the body/chassis:

fiat parts 19-5300.JPG


For more information on grounding issues and on ignition switch issues, the search function doesn't always work well for me. Try searching with all related terms like "ground wire", "electrical problem", "ignition switch". You will get a ton of unrelated stuff and have hundreds of pages to sift through, but I don't how to use the search any better...sorry. Maybe try looking at the "electrical system" section of the "Wiki":
http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
 
No no, i got the meaning, i actually call it "spider" myself.
Thanks for the tips.
 
And don't forget the two major grounds. The negative battery cable in the frunk, and the braided ground cable between the transmission and the chassis. Unbolt from chassis, clean the mounting pads and the ends of the cables and the bolts, and then bolt them back on.
 
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You might consider getting a ‘new’ fuse block which uses modern fuses. It takes a bit of work but would likely offer benefits in regards to reliability. There have been a few threads on doing so over the years.

Agreed on chasing the grounds. Having all those systems failing or working poorly suggests grounding issues and in some cases, the radio and clock, power supply issues. Often with an aftermarket radio there will be an inline fuse or a fuse on the back of the unit you may wish to check.
 
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In my opinion generally speaking, unless you happen to be fond of electrical work and have some experience at such things, I would retain the old style fuse box....provided it is in working order. Some servicing of all the contacts should get the old box back to a good condition. The Euro style ceramic fuses work fine from a functional aspect. And doing the conversion to a new style box is a bit involved. But having said that, if you are up to the task of swapping everything over (correctly) it would be a nice thing to have. This also depends on your particular X; for example my '79 with factory AC and a bunch of other extra circuits for various emissions gear, accessories, and who knows what else is a nightmare around the fuse box...I don't want to tackle that one. But others have fairly simple (relatively speaking) wire harnesses that would be less difficult to convert.
 
Definitely, it's not a project i would do on my own.
As long as the current setup is just unreliable but not unsafe, i'll keep maintain it as offered (cleaning and tightening).
It happened few times that i found a loose fuse (but in place).
To compare, my old Alfa Sud with the same ceramic fuses, never needed any service to the fuse box.
Each old itailan car with it's character.
 
Hi again,
I would like to update a this thread and look for further assistant, please.
I've cleaned and tightened all the fuses, 2 major grounds were replaced by new, thick and isolated units (plus cleaning ofcource),
and still few electrical issues are happening:
1. Please see the short movie:
You can hear the starter sliding, it can happen 8-10 time straight and than just start,
and it can start right away. Is it for sure a starter failure?
I've read here and checked the Gear Reduction Starters units for sale on MBW and VAC.
Consider a rebuild will leave my with the same old design, and consider i'm visiting the US at the end of April,
should i just buy one?

2. I could'nt catch it in that movie, but from time to time no lights come up while move the ignition to ACC.
Starter is crancking but ofcource no ignition. Again, it can happen few time straight and can be just fine.

3. Temp gauge stopped working, but not completely. Can suddenly go up and down again.

4. Those sudden cut outs describe in the first post stopped, after taking away the bottom steering wheel column cover o_O
Tried to find bad/cooked wiring without success.

Be happy to any help,
Thanks!
 
I would look carefully at your ignition switch and the associated connections for many of your problems around the intermittent nature of some of your wiring.

For the starter and the gauge, you may have a bad engine ground strap. This would go from the back cover of the transmission to the body. You can find it by looking at the left side rear wheel well. Removing it, cleaning the surfaces it attaches to and reinstalling or replacing it would be the thing to try first. I replace the braided strap with an insulated battery lead myself. This may fix several problems or have little effect if it wasn’t the problem, I suspect it may be the answer to the coolant gauge not registering.

The starter is spinning the gear but it is not moving the gear into the ring gear. You might want to remove the starter and test it off the car using a set of jumper cables to ground the body of the starter and apply power to the lug. Then using a short wire lead excite the solenoid from the lug to the solenoid. If it works consistently out of the car then you may choose to consider a starter relay, which you can make up the wiring set for yourself, this takes the load off the ignition switch. If it still doesn’t throw the gear forward, the arm may have broken or the solenoid may be bad. It may also just need lubrication. In any case I would rebuild it if it isn’t throwing the gear forward.

Assuming the engine ground gave no satisfaction, you will need to chase through a number of areas. I would first look at the ignition switch, these have a lot of current running through them and the contacts will degrade over time and use. I don’t know how much one costs wherever you are but a new one would be worth buying and then moving the wires over to test before pulling the old one out of the steering column. If this doesn’t solve the problem then you are out only the cost of the switch.

Removing the lower cover suggests bad connections to the ignition wires. I would look carefully at them as all the issues you describe beyond the starter could rest in the ignition switch and wiring being funky..

Your gauge issues could be a bad ground on the instrument panel board or the the ground wire leading from it. You can test the instrument panel off the car and verify the function of each gauge except the rev counter. As the panel is no fun to remove I would go there after verifying the ignition switch wiring myself.

Hope that helps.
 
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That helps alot, thank you Karl.
The engine ground strap was replaced by a new unit, looks like a battery lead. The bottom ground strap as well.
Here the are almost no original parts available and i could use that upcoming trip to bring some with me.
I would follow your suggestions before.
 
81x said:
That helps alot, thank you Karl.
The engine ground strap was replaced by a new unit, looks like a battery lead. The bottom ground strap as well.
Here the are almost no original parts available and i could use that upcoming trip to bring some with me.
I would follow your suggestions before.
Click to expand...

It really sounds like the starter solenoid isn't engaging (as Karl also suggested). This is a pretty common problem (especially when the car is hot). You should add a "hard start" relay to supply the full battery power to the solenoid without needing to put a lot of current through the ignition switch. Have a look here:

https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/hard-start-relay.11187/page-2

Cheers,
Dom.
 
I'll second everything already stated. And I'll add my opinions on a couple things.

Regarding the ignition switch. Due to the high loads that it carries, the wires that connect to the switch unit also get a lot of load. There is a plastic connector for those wires about 30 cm below it (typically white, square, with 4 wires). The contacts in that connector get very hot (resistance) and can actually burn the plastic housing or wires. Check it, clean it, or better yet replace it if needed. I don't recall if the "brown wire mod" and the "added relay mods" have already been discussed in this thread, but they help reduce the load to the ignition switch and related components. Highly recommended.

Regarding the starter. If it is the cause of some problems and needs repair, I'd consider finding a local shop that can rebuild it. I recall that you are far away from things, but hopefully there is somewhere that can do that for you. The gear reduction starters are nice but they are very expensive. And I've known gear reduction starters (for other vehicles) to not hold up well over time. Given your situation for shipping expense, tax/duty cost, etc it would be costly to have to replace it. Even if you want to bring one back on your visit to America, it is very heavy and will cause your luggage to be overweight. The stock starters seem to last a long time, so rebuilding it should be fine.
 
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I did a light overhaul on my starter and it did not take very long. It cost me about $10 for new brushes. The main thing was just taking it apart and cleaning all the crap out of it. I chucked the armature up in a drill and used some 400 grit paper to clean up the commutator. It made an incredible difference in cranking speed once it was done.
 
Thank you guys, i really appreciate your detailed posts, learned alot.
Rebuilding the old starter and switch wiring upgrade can easily done here and i of course will be happy to save some money and import issues.
I would check that hard start relay.
 
There are some other things you may choose to do to reduce the problems Jeff describes and add life to your ignition switch: adding relays to take the load off the switch and put the load on something cheap and easy to replace. Once you start down this path there are a variety of other relays you can also do to improve performance and the longevity of other switches.

Have a look at this post and the PDFs by some other members how to’s for adding a variety of relays to improve performance:

Easy way to tell if I have the Brown wire mod?

A couple of differences, your 81X likely doesn’t have a high beam relay and a few other differences. Hope this helps.
 
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