Engine making clattering sound--electrical demon?

JNewm

JNewm

True Classic
Hi all--

So, my brake problem has evolved into... something else. I'll try to describe what's happening. Sorry for all the details, but I figured they might be helpful to record and give background as I'm trying to diagnose this.

The car was running great two weeks ago. I just replaced the pedal box, including new brake and master cylinders. The car started up, ran, and drove for ~10 minutes last night.

But this morning, the car started, and I got it into reverse, but then the engine started making a weird knocking/clunking-type sound, then sputtered out. After that, it wouldn't start again.

I thought it was the clutch, so I tightened down a tube nut and bled the clutch again. Sure enough, it started up. I let it run for just a few seconds, then turned it off.

About an hour later, I went down to take the car for a test drive. It started, ran for a bit, I got it in reverse, but then it started making the weird clunk and sputtered again. The car started, but it was difficult, and it seemed to need me pushing the gas pedal to fire. It ran poorly for just a few seconds, then sputtered again.

I had a couple of thoughts, but wanted to run them and a few questions by the experts:

The Fuel Pump?
This is a nearly new Bosch fuel pump that was working fine up until I parked the car a few weeks ago. I did manage to spill clutch fluid on the top of it as I was lowering the bleeding hose to the ground. Is it possible that spilling some clutch fluid on the electric leads from the fuel pump would cause it to stop working, or at least stop working normally?

The Clutch?
The more I think about it, the less this seems like a clutch problem. The car won't stay running, even in neutral, but it's not bucking or shuddering like the driveshafts are being partially engaged. But could this be a clutch problem?

Something else?
Maybe I jostled or jiggled or pulled on some electrical connections up under the dash when moving the steering column around?

Any expertise would be much appreciated! I'm not at the end of my rope with this @#$# car yet, but it's definitely been a frustrating couple of weeks.
 
One of the "golden rules" of auto repair is that there are no coincidences (really there are but they are exceedingly rare). If the car was running fine before you began the work you performed, and now it has an issue, 99 times out of 100 something you did along the way caused it. Might be time to retrace your steps, but I'd be inclined to check the ignition switch connections first. Swinging the column to the side can easily pull a connector loose.
 
I like what Jimmy said. Based on what you described I would not expect it to be the clutch or brake fluid dripping on the fuel pump. Ya, they can get really frustrating. 🤬
 
Thanks for the responses! Bit of an update, with good news + bad news:

Good news first: the car is running and idling. I *think* the sputtering/dying thing may have been due to moisture--it's been extremely humid here for awhile now, and the car hadn't been run for a few weeks. @Dr.Jeff I think you're right; the fuel pump doesn't seem to be the issue.

Bad news: the clattering sound continues. It's definitely more of a "clatter" than a clunk. increases in speed along with engine RPM, which is interesting. It's definitely coming from the engine bay, and in particular it seems to be coming from the right/passenger side. It's hard to tell for sure, but it sounds like it's coming from down low on the front side of the engine block. Moving parts in the immediate area would include the starter and the distributor/rotor. Maybe something wonky with the starter, given the jostling of the ignition wires during the pedal-box replacement? @jimmyx , that sounds wise--time to go fiddle with those wires.
 
I would try using a piece of tubing up to the ear to try to localize the sound a bit more. Regarding the starter, it might be worth checking to see if the starter solenoid is fully retracting after cranking the engine. Not sure how much noise the distributor can make and still have the car run. You might want to check the cam belt tensioner for noise. They can get noisey when badly worn. Although on the back side of the engine, I would not necessarily rule out the alternator and the water pump.
 
Really tough to suggest what might be the cause of the chatter. I'm the type that needs to see, hear, and feel it to get a better idea where to start looking. But try and pin down the source. Even using a long piece of hose (like fuel line), holding one end in your ear and the other touching various components will act like a stethoscope to help hear where it is.

Ha-ha, I see Don just beat me to that last idea.
 
dllubin said:
Regarding the starter, it might be worth checking to see if the starter solenoid is fully retracting after cranking the engine.
Click to expand...
Plus 1 for this being the cause. It is possible the solenoid won't retract because it continues to get power - ie car is still trying to start even though it has already started. Could be a wiring issue - something that got disturbed in your recent adventures.
 
Thank y'all so much! I think you're on put me on the right track. I just took down the steering column again and checked to make sure all the plastic wiring connector things were connected, no wires were dangling, and the like. Everything visually looked okay, so I unplugged and replugged all the plastic connectors. I then reconnected the battery and tried starting it.

Holy crap! The starter sounds like what I can only describe as a roaring jungle cat. A big one, like a panther or something. I've never heard a starter sound like that. The engine kinda seemed to fire a few times, but everything sounded so awful I didn't dare hold the key in the start position for more than a second or two.

I tried refutzing with everything, then tried starting it again--same tiger roar, same failure to start. Then repeated. I also tried tugging on as many wires as I could get my fingers on to see if anything was loose, but nothing seemed to be.

So I guess it's good news/bad news. Good news is that the problem source seems to be zeroed in. Bad news is that I know very little about electronics, and nothing seems to be obviously awry.

Any thoughts on which wire/bundle of wires/plastic connector might be the problem? What could cause something to go that disastrously wrong with the starter, such that it still turns but makes an awful noise?



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Just for the record, I didn't break off that ignition switch mount bolt! This was my first time discovering something messed up on this car where I wasn't the one who did the messing 🤣
 
If you think that the starter is not disengaging, you can check to see if it is an electrical problem by measuring the voltage on the starter solenoid terminal. It should only have voltage on it when you've got the key turned all the way to the "crank" position. There should be no voltage on it in the "run" position.

It could also be a mechanical issue causing the starter not to retract. It could be a bad solenoid or even a bad starter, but based on how dirty I've seen starters get in that location, it could be dirt and grease build up in the unit. I refurbished (cleaning, new brushes, resurface commutator) my starter motor a couple of years ago and based on all the crap that came out of it, I was surprised it worked at all. After an hour or so of work, it acted like a brand new motor.
 
I do like @jimmyx 's golden rule--coincidences are rare, and a failing/failed starter right at this very moment feels like it would be a coincidence; right?

OTOH, the car did start, run, and drive *after* the pedal-box replacement (albeit only for a quick ~5 minute drive) without making the clatter noise. And I did let it run for awhile this afternoon before turning it off. Maybe that damaged the starter gears, if it was partially still engaged with the flywheel? And then, after I futzed with the wires, I tried it again and it sounded a lot worse--but that was because of the damage, instead of the wire-wiggling? Maybe? (I'm really hoping it's just the starter, not a random little electrical wire issue.)
 
JNewm said:
I do like @jimmyx 's golden rule--coincidences are rare, and a failing/failed starter right at this very moment feels like it would be a coincidence; right?
Click to expand...
Maybe you actually won the Murphy's Law lottery? First disconnect the solenoid feed wire and connect it to a test light. Light should stay on in the "crank" position, and go off in the "run" position. If that checks out and there is whining, grinding, growling, etc. I think unbolting the starter for a closer inspection, including the pinion teeth (and flywheel too) might be a good start.
 
Thanks yet again, guys. Pulling me back from the brink. I feel like there's a "Murphy's Law-ttery" joke to be made here...

I do have a multimeter in the toolbox, though it doesn't get used very often. So, as I understand it, pull the RED wire off of the starter. Using the multimeter, check whether it is getting power when the ignition switch is in the "START" position and make sure it is not getting power when the ignition switch is in the "RUN" (or "OFF") positions.

(Don't need to pull/test the green wire, because that's just always hot.)


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Re: Just for the record, I didn't break off that ignition switch mount bolt! This was my first time discovering something messed up on this car where I wasn't the one who did the messing 🤣


The two capscrews that clamp the ignition switch assy to the column have security "break-off" heads that are in fact supposed to be tightened until they break off, like the one in your pic. It's supposed to be a security feature so that a car thief can't just unbolt the switch from the column in order to defeat the steering wheel lock function of the switch.
 
JNewm said:
I do have a multimeter in the toolbox, though it doesn't get used very often. So, as I understand it, pull the RED wire off of the starter. Using the multimeter, check whether it is getting power when the ignition switch is in the "START" position and make sure it is not getting power when the ignition switch is in the "RUN" (or "OFF") positions.
Click to expand...
You've got it.....
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
The two capscrews that clamp the ignition switch assy to the column have security "break-off" heads that are in fact supposed to be tightened until they break off, like the one in your pic. It's supposed to be a security feature so that a car thief can't just unbolt the switch from the column in order to defeat the steering wheel lock function of the switch.
Click to expand...

On the bright side, I am learning an awful lot. So somebody messed up, but it was by *not* breaking the other one! :)
 
It does seem like this time you may have a coincidence, the issue might not be from the steering column wiring but from the starter itself...as the others are saying. The drive gear on the starter is pushed forward by the starter solenoid (when the key is turned to the "start" position). This is how the starter motor engages with the flywheel to turn the engine over. Then it should retract back by itself when the key is let off the "start" position. It's not uncommon for the solenoid to get "sticky" and not retract back. And it will make a lot of racket when that happens. Sometimes you can free it up by tapping on the starter/solenoid with a small hammer. But the problem will reoccur so it needs to be addressed. Sounds like you are on the right path with the advice already given above. Let us know how it goes.
 
Thanks again to all for the advice! Like I said, y'all really pulled me back from the brink on this one. We take off tomorrow morning for a two-week road trip (sadly, not in the X as originally planned), so I haven't gotten the chance to check the solenoid wire yet. But a new starter is on the way from MWB. In yet another weird coincidence, I had already ordered one about a week ago because it was next on Matt's "New to You" to-do list, but it was back-ordered. Who knows, maybe I jinxed myself by ordering it? Should arrive while we're out of town. As soon as we return, I'll check the solenoid wire as described above, and if it checks out okay, I'll replace the starter. I'll update this thread once I know either way.
 
I'll raise another possibility, just to be sure you're not over-complicating things: In the ~2 week time that the car sat idle, the battery's charge my have dropped sufficiently to cause trouble. When the battery's low, it may have enough power to engage the solenoid (which makes a bit of a 'clack') but can't deliver enough current for the starter motor to turn the engine over. Sometimes the solenoid engages and drops out repeatedly making a rapid 'click-click-click-click'. The cure is to charge the battery. It certainly won't hurt to be certain that it is fully charged, and it just might help.
 
The day after I got our X home, this insanely loud, clattering, rattling began. It didn’t start mid-drive, it started with a key turn. It lasted for about 4-6 miles, then the starter exploded within. Well, the car just died and I glided to a stop.
Nasty, random, non-mathematical sound. Starter was replaced, and we began again.
So far our only catastrophic fail.
 
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