Engine Stand for X1/9 1300?

[Dr.Jeff]

you would really have to work to knock it over

I had a complete engine just sitting on top of a dolly with a flat plywood deck, so it was sloped at the angle of the bottom of the pan (as it is in the car). I only had a ratchet strap over the engine from one side of the dolly to the other, plus a small piece of 2x4 under the end of the oil filter. That was one of the larger dollys with a wider footprint than the smaller one. It was quite stable, but I felt like it could flop over if I tried (almost started to tip once). I think if the engine was straight upright it would be even more stable. That's why I asked to see your cradle empty, to see if it was level on all sides. With it supporting the edges of the oil pan rather than under the sloped bottom of it, the engine is sitting upright.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Don, how about a quick measurement of the inside box dimensions (length x width) the pan sits in? I can measure the oil pan, but you already have it figured out. Appreciate it.

 

[dllubin]

I had a complete engine just sitting on top of a dolly with a flat plywood deck, so it was sloped at the angle of the bottom of the pan (as it is in the car). I only had a ratchet strap over the engine from one side of the dolly to the other. That was one of the larger dollys with a wider footprint than the smaller one. It was quite stable, but I felt like it could flop over if I tried (almost started to once). I think if the engine was straight upright it would be even more stable. That's why I asked to see your cradle empty, to see if it was level on all sides. With it supporting the edges of the oil pan rather than under the sloped bottom of it, the engine is sitting upright.

Yes, the engine is supported at the edges of the pan if the pan is on. That was the case when the 1500 was on it. Since I had to use my 1300 pan for the 1500, the 1300 in the photo has no pan and it sits on the bottom edges of the block where the pan would have been. Had this thing been designed from scratch to perform all the functions it has been used for, it would have looked slightly different. Also, the whole wheel thing was constrained by me trying to use what was in my junk box - two old lawnmower wheels and a big caster that held up the end of an old 12 foot wooden gate. A more ideal choice could be 4 casters. Then, you would not need a dolly to roll the engine under the car.

The idea for the wooden stand came from a photo I found of a Fiat SOHC crate engine:

There was also a photo I came across (I think on this site but it has been a while) of someone who made a stand of metal. It's dimensions could give you a general idea of what is required, but an oil pan makes a great guide:

Unfortunately I do not have the dimensions for Denny's stand and I would have to take the engine off to get to it. If you have access to a pan, that would be the way to go.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Thanks again Don. Didn't realize you had an engine on it currently.

That last photo you showed of a metal stand is exactly what I was describing earlier on, like the pic I found of one for a Honda engine. But for the use with the engine and trans together (original post), I'd extend the length and maybe do the uprights a little different to support the tail end of the trans. Perhaps just support the forward end of the engine pan (like the lower left corner, but on both sides), then a center support that connects where the crossmember normally goes. Or similar. Nice job of illustrating, whoever made the pic. All the needed dimensions are there.

 

[RZSR X]

There are wheels on the front bolted up suspension (in case of an earthquake) even though on jack stands so I can roll under the whole body. I hope the engine on the hoist will clear the body if I lower the rear stands (without worry of the front stands going over), then raise the rear body back up around the engine and keep the replaced ( but un-tightened) rear suspension in place.

I had to take off everything on top of the motor to clear the wheel well on the way out so there is no way I 'm going to get the body high enough to slide a complete engine in through the wheel well.

Time to get a dolly and the Pittsburgh hoist at HF which will I can also use to remove the engine from my Vanagon after I pick it up.

 

[dllubin]

Thanks again Don. Didn't realize you had an engine on it currently.

That last photo you showed of a metal stand is exactly what I was describing earlier on, like the pic I found of one for a Honda engine. But for the use with the engine and trans together (original post), I'd extend the length and maybe do the uprights a little different to support the tail end of the trans. Perhaps just support the forward end of the engine pan (like the lower left corner, but on both sides), then a center support that connects where the crossmember normally goes. Or similar. Nice job of illustrating, whoever made the pic. All the needed dimensions are there.

I found that putting the trans on the engine with no additional support did not seem to compromise the stability. The engine is 2.5 - 3x heavier than the trans so I don't think it has a huge effect on the center of mass.

 

[carl]

RZ, you seem set on dropping the engine in from the top and I'm curious why you are going that route when 99% of us go from underneath?
Removing the driver side A arm is required to slide the motor in (or out) and I have never had any clearance problems even with the motor sitting on a HF move dolly.

 

[dllubin]

I slid mine in from the passenger side and there was tons of room. Just make sure the sheet metal panel in the wheel arch is off.

 

[RZSR X]

Carl, even with the small sheet metal panel removed I barely got the engine out the wheel well. Maybe my fully extended jack stands aren't tall enough? But I do know that I had to take off the carb and the next layer down on the engine to clear. With the engine fully assembled I'm looking at at least a foot taller going back in.

I guess I could use an engine hoist to lift the rear of the X high enough to slide through a wheel well but that then brings me back to removing an A-arm and suspension on one side that is extremely hard to get back on in my case. The many different size shims suck and I'm not sure they all went back where they came from as some were stuck and then went flying. The large bolts are also a bitch to line up and get back in the holes without the chance of messing up the threads.

Plus as I remember I had little control of the engine on the floor jack coming out and it all eventually fell out of the wheel well onto the floor which I didn't care about at the time but now that all my shinny and painted parts are on I see damage in my future trying to steady it on a floor jack all the way into mounting position!

I know I have read of other forum members saying they dropped the engine in from above, even in this string. Just seems like one would have way more control of position, tilt along with lowering and raising from above.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Is this not going to go well?

 

[dllubin]

You can get the same control pulling it up from the bottom with an engine hoist and there is a whole lot less stuff for it to fall on. I used a hoist with some nylon rope and pulled mine up in just a few minutes with no helpers.

 

[carl]

Taking the A-arm out is part of the standard procedure but I get your hate in dealing with reinstall of it, not fun.

You can also lay the motor over on it's side on a dolly and then hoist into position once you have pushed it under the car.

 

[nichol01]

When installing my motor. I had a chain hoist mounted to a beam in my garage. I positioned the motor where my hoist was located. I had my car with the front wheels on the ground. I then lifted the car with my floor jack and a 4' long 4" x 6" up against front a arm mount. Then positioned my jack handle facing forward under the the car and pushed the car back over the motor steering the car with the jack. Lowered the car back on jack stands and lifted the motor in place. It went really good. No problems. I didn't remove the a arm although a little tight, it fit with no problem.

 

[RZSR X]

Nichol, how did you clear the front wheels with the jack handle when swinging it forward? Wasn't it too long to do that?

Also what is the mount you used to bolt to the engine?

 

[nichol01]

Nichol, how did you clear the front wheels with the jack handle when swinging it forward? Wasn't it too long to do that?

Also what is the mount you used to bolt to the engine?

You are correct the handle would be to long. I forgot to mention my jack handle is two pieces. So I took it apart to swing the jack to the front.
Also if your talking about my lifting support. I made that out of 1" x 3/16" steel angle and two pieces of 2" wide x 3/16" flat steel. Cut to length and welded together (using my cheapo harbor freight welder) I bolted it to the snail mount and one of the dogbone mounting bracket studs on the cambox. This was one of those lightbulb moments while I was staring at the motor and trans thinking how am I gonna do this. One thing nice about the angle on top is I could slide the chain back and forth to balance the load. It worked surprisingly well. Hope this helps.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I bolted it to the snail mount and one of the dogbone mounting bracket studs on the cambox.

I did something similar, however I found having the snail mount connected to the hoist interfered with getting the snail mount in place on the chassis. But unfortunately there aren't a lot of other good attachment points at that end of the engine.

 

[RZSR X]

Ok I'll lift the rear of the X and dolly in the motor from behind but I know the snail mount lifting point won't work for me. Do straps work for lifting or does the engine end up tilting one way or another without positioning control?

 

[dllubin]

I used 5/8" nylon rope to lift my engine - one end around the snail mount and the other on the trans lift ring. I don't recommend the lift ring as mine bent so I'm not sure it was up to the task. It is pretty easy to adjust ropes and if you further need to constrain the motion you can add more.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Several of the guys use straps and ropes, works fine.

If you get a "leveler" with your hoist it is a big help in my opinion. I'm talking about one of these (or something like it):

Allows you to change the angle of the engine/trans to align things or to clear things as you work.


After reading this discussion I decided to see if I could improve my hoist/lift attachment set up. Played around with a couple ideas based on stuff others showed. Ended up using some scrap pieces of steel and making two attachment anchors; one for the two studs where the "dog-bone" mount attaches, and one that can bolt to two of the four holes on the side of the head where the upper alternator bracket goes. My alt mount only uses two of those four holes, so this bracket will use the other two. These anchors then bolt directly to the two ends of my leveler (as in the pic above) without the need for chains or straps. Now it is a very solid attachment, with full use of the leveler, and no wasted space between the top of the engine and the hoist. Due to the very high lifting requirement to get these engines in, it helps to keep the engine and hoist close together so you don't lose much lifting range. I'll get a couple pics later to add.

 

[RZSR X]

Keep the suggestions coming! Dr. Jeff - looking forward to the pics.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Here are some quick shots....

Those upper tabs bolt directly onto the "leveler" at the points indicated below (but no chains are used). That's why one of the fabricated anchors has a 'dog-leg' (first two pics), so it equals the width of the leveler's ends.

This arrangement frees up the snail mount so the engine can be removed or installed directly from the lift. The dog-bone on the other end can be reattached after the snail mount and lower main mounts are secured. Plus everything is attached from the top; easy to reach and no interference with the lower mount/crossmember. However it does require the removal of the dog-bone mount. And depending on how your alternator is mounted, the other end may need some redesign to use those holes in the head.

I seriously doubt it will need it, but I might add a small brace across the 'dog-leg', like this...

It's not pretty but it was a quick and dirty job that should be functional. For me, removing and installing a engine trans is not fun (I work alone and I have a physical handicap), so anything to make little differences go a long way. Haven't tried it yet but hope it helps.


EDIT: While making a dolly to carry a combined engine and transmission I experienced a failure. The head and all accessories were removed from the engine so I could not use the attachment brackets shown here. So I used the typical chains to connect the eng/trans assembly to the hoist. One of the bolts that normally holds the snail mount on the block was used for the front chain. And the rear chain was bolted to the top of the transmission case, where the clutch slave mounts. That tab on the trans broke while the assembly was hanging on the hoist:

The transmission case is cast aluminum and not strong enough to use as a anchor point.