Euro 1500 cam?

zonker

zonker

Just Another FIAT Freak
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/5579

Found this thread about a Federal Mogul / AE Engine parts P/N CAM517 after I sourced the same cam online while looking for a euro cam.

The thread nor the manufacturer's website doesn't answer the question whether or not this is the 9.9mm lift cam or not. Anybody ever spec out this cam? Because if it is, I found a source (rockauto.com) that can get it to me for $105 shipping included.

Any ideas?
 
128 coupe / X1/9 1300 (75hp) 24/68 64/28 lift at the valve (no play) 9.75mm for intake / exhaust (Fiat part number 4331512)




X1/9 1500 carburettor (85cv) 24/68 64 28 lift at the valve (no play) 9.85 inlet 9.90 exhaust (Fiat part number 4333059)



and just to be thorough, the specs for the later euro 1300 (73hp) which is a 12/52 9.2 cam (Fiat part number 4358713)



now the two interesting things to note are,

1. all these cams have a 28mm base circle, but the two 24/68 cams total lift can't be measured by putting a caliper across the base and then across the nose... as the cams lift ramp begins before the mid way point (spec U) as this is already 28.35mm ... (so 0.175mm of lift at this point) ... unlike the 12/52 cam where the base circle true value can be measure (U is 28.00mm)

2. the euro 1500 cam is 9.85mm lift on the intake, and 9.90mm lift on the exhaust... recently I aquired a copy of the factory specs and features manual for the 1500 euro carb 5 speed X19 and that concurs with the FIA documents.

1500 euro x19 five speed cam specs page from 'data and charecteristics 9/78'


128 rally cam specs 'caratteristiche e dati 1/72'




128 sport coupe cam specs ' caratteristiche e data 11/71'




here's a scan of the Fiat part numbers you DONT want...these are the part numbers and supercessions for the basic run of the mill 128 1116cc sedan. (12/52 and 9.1 and later 9.2mm of valve lift)

4221372 is the original part number for a 128 1116cc sedan, 12/52 9.1mm.

it superceeds to a 4332961, which is 9.2mm lift and the same duration.

this the superceeds to a 4358713 which is the same... there are ebay sellers who are trying to pass off this part number as a 'euro x19 cam' as it was in the 1975/78 euro 1300, but it's a 12/52 9.2mm cam, not a 24/68 64/28 9.75mm intake (1300) or 9.85mm intake (1500) X19 cam, so 'buyer beware'




The 128 Sport coupe 1100 (just to confuse the issue) uses a cam with 9.75 lift, but is 12/52 duration... I don't have that part numbers to hand but basically caveat emptor if you shop for a cam based on lift alone.

SteveC
 
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Steve, you continue to amaze me. I wound up buying a cam from a eBay source in the UK for 90 gbp ($150 usd approx). And it is a "kit", meaning it comes with a new set of buckets as well. Too bad a selection of bucket shims are not also included ;)

It's scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I'll be breaking out my calipers and taking a measure to see what i have gotten.

Rob
 
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Euro Cam

Zonker,

Can you let me know the EBAY site. Would like to check and see if another cam exists if it is the right profile.
Steve (fiatfactory) is presently building a head for me and I am looking at options.

Byron
 
That's a cam 'kit' which should include the 8 followers, same seller has just the cam ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMSHAFT-FI...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2588998aef

for a few $$'s less ...

I fear it may not be the correct one though... anything that lists 128 /regata and x19 in the same heading will likely be a 12/52 and 9.2 lift ...

calipers will give you a rough idea, if the lobe measured across the nose and base (values T and S added) is approx 37.9mm then your on a winner and it's a euro 1500, if it's 37.75 then you have a euro 1300/128 coupe and your still ok, if it's 37.2mm then not so lucky...and you have a good blank for a regrind... that will tell you the lift, for the true timing you need to get a little more technical.

In your case (1300 1974 USA spec) the extra duration will avail you more than the extra total lift, as the stock head starts to lose total flow about 7.5ish mm of lift anyway... but the additional duration will increase the VE at higher revs so will do some good. But if you swap to a later euro head (late combustion chamber shape and no decompression recess) and use a euro 24/68 9.85 intake lift cam, your 1300 will easily have more power that a stock 1500 efi, even without any port mods... and quite a bit more power (than a stock 1500 efi) if you do some port / valve seat / valve mods for more flow...

Rob, I hope the amazement is a good thing??

SteveC
 
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Yes it's a great thing, Steve. :pimp:

Prior to buying, I did email the seller and asked if it was a 9.9mm lift cam. He replied it was, so I am expecting something like an early 1300 or the carb 1500 bumpstick.

Lets hope he was not just telling me what I wanted to hear...
 
Read the above caveat emptor re the 1100 128 coupe cam... right sort of lift, wrong sort of duration... I hope it's the 'right' one, I really do, but I've got my doubts.


SteveC
 
Doubts well founded it seems like :(

No numbers stamped in the ends of the cam, so this for sure is an aftermarket blank ground to AE specifications (whatever that was).
37.2mm / 28.3mm are the hi/lo measurements I am pulling from the cam.
This should translate to... the 9.2mm lift, but the minor measurement is not a straight 28, so perhaps this is a 24/68 with a 9.2mm lift?

I might take this up to my cam grinder pals (web camshaft) and have them spec out this cam.
 
Probably a 15/55 9.2mm from the later regata/ritmo/uno engines, never seen a 24/68 with 9.2 lift, or any reference to one. You really want the longer duration not so much the extra lift anyway with a stock engine, like I said before, as the stock head flow curve flattens right out after 7.5mm lift...

When you have the cam checked, use 0.50mm clearance for the factory numbers, not 0.00 for absolute seat to seat, for fun check it 0.30 and 0.40 in/ex and see what the true running duration would be. If you have a spare cambox, a dial gauge and stand, and a large diameter protractor you can get a fairly accurate idea... the smaller the protractor diameter the larger the inaccuracy, I use a giant stainless steel degree wheel thats 40cm across and lazer etched with 360 degree markings, so it's easily accurate to half a degree.

Albert, no part numbers cast into the cams, it's a measure only type of deal... you can physically see the difference with a 9.75 24/68 compared to a 12/52 9.2, but that's if you have both cams side by side, and it's hardly an accurate way to spec a cam 'well it looks like....'

SteveC
 
Thanks Steve for the later Ritmo info, but I was hoping for a preliminary confirmation that ther might be a 24/68 at 9.2mm.

Oh well I was hoping... I already emailed the seller and lets see what his response to this not being a 9.9mm cam.

As for measuring this one, I will leave it in much more capable hands.
Steve at Web will set the cam on blocks and measure duration at .020" (.5mm), and .010" or .020" increments until full lift is read.

He tells me readings below 0.5mm are seldom accurate and hard to duplicate since the ramp angle at that point is soo damn slow.

And then, after he measures, it's time to look into what can be made of this "blank".

Steve, whats your opinion of finding a new cam grind to speed up the ramp angle of the open/close event, giving it stockish duration below 1.5mm lift, but a larger duration for an extra 10-20 degrees of duration at max lift?

This should help retain more low end grunt while improving breathing higher up. The valvetrain might be a bit more noisy since the more violent open/close event, but the hp/tq gains might be worth it.

I'm thinking since this is a cam on bucket design one can usually get away with quite a bit here so that's what I'd like to try (if the valve springs and engine harmonics can handle it). Am I crazy? Or think this is a worthwhile venture?
 
Just buy a euro 1300 128 coupe/rally/x19 cam spec cam...4331512... I've found a seller in Italy that has them and pointed Byron (Halt) that way...I hope he gets one before everyone else buys them!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FIAT-128-CO..._automobili&hash=item3f219444c0#ht_2194wt_835

and it does just what your talking about, and without the need to reduce the base circle, skim the cambox and deal with timing and belt tension issues...or have to get the cam reground in the first place... all that adds up to more than the cost of the right cam.

The coupe cam has a much rounder nose to the cam, so it does just that, holds the valve open at full lift (or close to it) for longer, and lifts it higher... no timing/clearance/cambox skimming/belt tension issues.

SteveC
 
Well, skimming a cam box and making a new grind sounds much more exciting, and I can probably do it for the cost of the cam you posted on ebay, so I'm gonna experiment :)

Besides, when I adjusted my valves on this car, the shims are mucho thick (4.5mm range), so skimming 1mm off the cam box to gain the use of lighter 3.5mm shims, and adding an adjustable cam gear sound like more fun.

Anybody got a spare cam box they want to part with cheap??
 
just remember that on a 1300 a skimmed cambox and a skimmed head = no easy go to source for an oversized tensioner bearing... just something to consider for later down the track if your thinking of more static compression.

cost of cambox
cost of cambox skim
cost of cam
cost of cam regrind
cost of adjustable cam gear

must equal more than the cost of buying the correct cam in the first instance... I can't see how it couldn't. The original coupe/rally cam will fit straight in with no issues.

4.5mm shims probably means the head has been rebuilt at some stage, and someone has either tipped the valves to square then off at the stem, and/or used a thicker than stock cambox base gasket, or the valve heads are a little bent ... every other scenario makes the clearances smaller, like seat recession, seat recutting, valve head refacing etc.

SteveC
 
fiatfactory said:
just remember that on a 1300 a skimmed cambox and a skimmed head = no easy go to source for an oversized tensioner bearing... just something to consider for later down the track if your thinking of more static compression.

cost of cambox
cost of cambox skim
cost of cam
cost of cam regrind
cost of adjustable cam gear

must equal more than the cost of buying the correct cam in the first instance... I can't see how it couldn't. The original coupe/rally cam will fit straight in with no issues.

4.5mm shims probably means the head has been rebuilt at some stage, and someone has either tipped the valves to square then off at the stem, and/or used a thicker than stock cambox base gasket, or the valve heads are a little bent ... every other scenario makes the clearances smaller, like seat recession, seat recutting, valve head refacing etc.

SteveC
Click to expand...

Cheaper overall yes, but not as fun. Also, I have just bought a paperweight if I go source another cam and that will be an irritant to me knowing I blew that money on something I cannot use.

The cam gear was going to be bought regardless of what the outcome is, and hopefully a used box can be found for cheap, or I'll just redo the box on my car.

Regarding belt tensioner issues...
I was thinking of sporting a shorter belt, like 1 tooth shorter. It appears that the Renault R21 2.0 turbo uses a 115 tooth 19mm timing belt instead of the 1300 X's 116 tooth 19mm belt. This will shorten the belt approx 9.5mm. That should give me 3-5 mm of cam base circle and cam box deck height to play with. Your thoughts?
 
Never tried it, but 1 tooth shorter would be a tooth and a valley, 10mm wide each, so more like 20mm difference in length.

You might have a paperweight even after you finish... usually cam grinders like to have a master of something to grind from...though some fancy computer controlled grinders these days don't need that, you basically do a cad drawing of the required profile and it grinds away.... then there's getting the lobes hardened again...and keeping the cam straight...but by all means give it a go


SteveC
 
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