Exhaust options

Well, it seems that the folks at Vick Auto and I have a different interpretation of what it means for their header to be compatible with the mufflers for both Carbureted and Fuel-Injected cars. It looks to me like it would be a direct fit with the Carbureted version, but will involve reconfiguring to use the FI muffler I bought for it. If anyone else has successfully installed a Vick's header with a FI Muffler, I'd love to hear how you did it.

Brian

Well...this was discussed a while back here:


I dont think there was a definitive answer as to fitting it with the stock FI muffler..but at least some discussion about it :rolleyes:

Perhaps BJ could pipe in as to what he did in the end. But it seems the collector on the header has to be cut shorter. But note the FI muffler does not have a flat flange on it...and I think a different bolt pattern....
 
Thanks for the replies and the pointer to the earlier thread. I think it contains some useful information for me. I'll read it carefully.
At present, I'm still hoping to make this work with the FI Muffler, although I realize some modifications will be necessary.

And yes, the 3-bolt flanges of the two types of mufflers have different bolt circles. Also, the Carb one is flat, and the FI one is a type of flex-joint. (The stock carb-style system has a similar joint on the other side of the catalytic converter.)

Brian
 
Personally I'm not sure why there is a desire to install a performance header but retain the stock restrictive exhaust system. But I'm not questioning anyones preferences, just making a general comment.

If modifications are required to install the stock system onto the header then perhaps look at the difference in cost between having that done and having a new system built specifically for it.
 
Well...this was discussed a while back here:


A post from Andrew at Vicks in the thread that rx1900 pointed me to contained the following:

"I have personally installed one of these batch of headers onto an 87 and retained the stock muffler. The slip fit flange adapter makes it so the header collector can be cut down. This is so it can fit the largest group of cars and so it can be adjusted to make the muffler fit across the largest range of cars. It can be cut when installing our muffler as well to help with fitment and tip location. This is very typical of aftermarket exhaust."

So, I now have an answer about the intent behind the design. Putting the flange on a separate piece with a slip fit allows for adjustability in the length both by telescoping and allowing the installer to easily cut the collector to length. It doesn't address the mismatch in the flange type, but I don't doubt that Andrew was able to bolt them together with some whittling. I'll conjecture that included turning the bolt holes in the smaller flange into slots and chamfering the ID to accept the tip of the conical piece on the end of the FI Muffler. So, now I also have a description of a way to install this header with a FI Muffler. I don't think I'll do it quite like that, but that may be a discussion for the workshop section.

Brian
 
Personally I'm not sure why there is a desire to install a performance header but retain the stock restrictive exhaust system. But I'm not questioning anyones preferences, just making a general comment.

If modifications are required to install the stock system onto the header then perhaps look at the difference in cost between having that done and having a new system built specifically for it.

It's OK to question my preferences, as long as you realize it's OK for them to be different from yours. It's a legitimate question. The answer lies in understanding the starting point and the goals.

Starting point:
After 40 years, my muffler has holes corroded in it - it was time to be replace it.
The catalytic converter flange with the flex-joint broke off. Looks like the flex joint was bolted up too tight to move and corroded in place. I welded it as a temporary fix, but recognized it was time for that to be replaced, too.
The condition of the downpipe, prior to the cat? Who knows - but it's 40 years old.
The manifold? That chunk of cast iron isn't worn out, but internet wisdom tells me it's a significant restriction.
Another aspect of the starting point is that I don't have lots of time to fool with this, so was looking for a bolt-in solution. (That's not a complaint. The other things I'm giving higher priority to are good things which I am thankful for. But it's a factor I had to consider.)

My decision process:
The available long-tube headers take us all the way from the block to the muffler. They eliminate the restriction in the exhaust manifold, eliminate the downpipe (of questionable integrity), and eliminate the catalytic converter with the broken flange (I wrestled with that decision). Of the two versions readily available, one was Stainless Steel, and claimed to work with either of the two stock mufflers or a 'performance' muffler. Most 'performance' mufflers are louder than stock. I put a higher priority on the muffler actually muffling than folks who would choose something else. Part of the reason for that is to have a higher likelihood of someone occupying the passenger seat. That makes more difference to me than extracting an extra horsepower or two. Of the stock mufflers, the FI Muffler ended in the right plane to make the brace to the transmission line up with the joint, which seemed desirable. Fortunately for me, forum-member Budzinsk had a NOS FI Muffler for sale at a good price.

That's how I got where I am. I recognize others would make different choices, and I'm OK with that. How I get from here to an installed system will bring more choices, and I'll start a workshop thread for that.

Brian
 
Would it not be easier to cut off the FI flange and weld on an early flange? Not sure if the muffler pipe size is the same on FI and carb versions, but if it is the flange is readily available.

 
Better. A vendor should developp an adapter for switching from a carbureted part to a FI one. Or to flip the adapter for FI to carb... A simple flange with 3 bolts on one side and 4 on the other would do. And gaskets on both side could be integrated.

But I don't know if there will be a sufficient demand or if most people are going to a full set-up... or building themselves...
 
Would it not be easier to cut off the FI flange and weld on an early flange? Not sure if the muffler pipe size is the same on FI and carb versions, but if it is the flange is readily available.

Thanks for the suggestion. It may go something like that. The flange you linked is 2.5", like the collector, and the pipe heading into the muffler is 1.75", but the concept is still valid.
 
Better. A vendor should developp an adapter for switching from a carbureted part to a FI one. Or to flip the adapter for FI to carb... A simple flange with 3 bolts on one side and 4 on the other would do. And gaskets on both side could be integrated.

But I don't know if there will be a sufficient demand or if most people are going to a full set-up... or building themselves...
Honestly, with the small number of X1/9's out there, I think our vendors are doing a good job. But, there's always room for improvement.
 
IMG_3336.jpg


This is the gasket I used on my long tube headers with the stock carb muffler on one car and a turbo muffler (loud) on the other car. Fit perfectly. No experience with the Vick headers.
 
It's OK to question my preferences, as long as you realize it's OK for them to be different from yours. It's a legitimate question. The answer lies in understanding the starting point and the goals.

Starting point:
After 40 years, my muffler has holes corroded in it - it was time to be replace it.
The catalytic converter flange with the flex-joint broke off. Looks like the flex joint was bolted up too tight to move and corroded in place. I welded it as a temporary fix, but recognized it was time for that to be replaced, too.
The condition of the downpipe, prior to the cat? Who knows - but it's 40 years old.
The manifold? That chunk of cast iron isn't worn out, but internet wisdom tells me it's a significant restriction.
Another aspect of the starting point is that I don't have lots of time to fool with this, so was looking for a bolt-in solution. (That's not a complaint. The other things I'm giving higher priority to are good things which I am thankful for. But it's a factor I had to consider.)

My decision process:
The available long-tube headers take us all the way from the block to the muffler. They eliminate the restriction in the exhaust manifold, eliminate the downpipe (of questionable integrity), and eliminate the catalytic converter with the broken flange (I wrestled with that decision). Of the two versions readily available, one was Stainless Steel, and claimed to work with either of the two stock mufflers or a 'performance' muffler. Most 'performance' mufflers are louder than stock. I put a higher priority on the muffler actually muffling than folks who would choose something else. Part of the reason for that is to have a higher likelihood of someone occupying the passenger seat. That makes more difference to me than extracting an extra horsepower or two. Of the stock mufflers, the FI Muffler ended in the right plane to make the brace to the transmission line up with the joint, which seemed desirable. Fortunately for me, forum-member Budzinsk had a NOS FI Muffler for sale at a good price.

That's how I got where I am. I recognize others would make different choices, and I'm OK with that. How I get from here to an installed system will bring more choices, and I'll start a workshop thread for that.

Brian
I totally understand your position. :) And my earlier post was not intended to sound negative in any way, sorry if it was poorly worded. ;)
 
Thanks for the write up and pics! Some creative fixes there.
How does she sound?

I'm eyeing Vics downpipes also. The '82 I recently acquired has an awesome, vintage 4-pipe Ansa system that's unfortunately got a few rust holes in it. Not too noisy (yet) so will drive it for a while as is, but maybe next winter go the carbed muffler w/ SS header route. Would hate to cut up the brand new dogbone I just got from MWB though...
cheers!
 
Thanks for the write up and pics! Some creative fixes there.
How does she sound?

I'm eyeing Vics downpipes also. The '82 I recently acquired has an awesome, vintage 4-pipe Ansa system that's unfortunately got a few rust holes in it. Not too noisy (yet) so will drive it for a while as is, but maybe next winter go the carbed muffler w/ SS header route. Would hate to cut up the brand new dogbone I just got from MWB though...
cheers!

Your signature mentions Milwaukee, so you probably remember Winter in Wisconsin. The test drives will have to wait for Spring. I’m looking forward to finding out how it sounds, then. But for now I’m working my way down the list of projects.
Jim posted a video of his car with a similar exhaust system. That’s about what I’m expecting.
 
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In anything other than a full on track car, we are better off with 4/2/1. The 4 /1 is a race exhaust - main benefits are at the top end. 4/2/1 give best results across the bottom and mid range - which is what is most needed in daily use. And easier to package too.
 
Guy Croft did some exhaust work with some SOHC Fiat owners that showed they could get more power with a 4/2/1 with long primaries (28 inches from memory) than a 4/1 system. That's what I have used (4/2/1) but I don't have anything to compare it with.
 
Honestly, with the small number of X1/9's out there, I think our vendors are doing a good job. But, there's always room for improvement.
Yeah winter drags on foreverer there... but still would fire her up in the garage :)
 
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