Ferrari 308/348 cylinder head

Eastep

True Classic
I remember this being mentioned as a "what if" or "can it be done" in a thread from years and years ago... Xweb V1.0 IIRCC. I was just curious if anyone has since attempted this, or access to one for comparison and measurements sake? If I remember, we discussed oil/ coolant ports would need to be filled and drilled. To match up tp the Xs block.
 
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Ok, I'll bite. Why would you want to install a Ferrari head...besides the fact it's a Ferrari head?

Have you seen 308 prices in the last 5-7 years? I can imagine that head will cost more than a complete K20 engine at this point.
 
I remember this being mentioned as a "what if" or "can it be done" in a thread from years and years ago... Xweb V1.0 IIRCC. I was just curious if anyone has since attempted this, or access to one for comparison and measurements sake? If I remember, we discussed oil/ coolant ports would need to be filled and drilled. To match up tp the Xs block.

Xweb V1.0 is still alive for searching. Took me about 10 seconds to find this thread. Sounds like Ulix might have some info.
 
As you can imagine, most of the pictures are dead links these days. The text is all still available and the search still functions. I believe v2.0 is gone now, but the contents were ported to v3.
 
Anything can be made to fit with enough effort.
I german hillclimb, the stock block needs to be retained, beyond that, everything goes.
Motorcycle engine heads are often grafted onto small 4-cylinder blocks.
Why a Ferrari head was used, I don't remember. But there wasn't a very good reason, it wasn't like it was an easy fit.

My buddy helped a guy racing an old VW Polo (like a smaller version of the Rabbit) with a motorcycle head and race fuel injection. They ended up making around 230hp from 1300ccm normally aspirated. :eek:
 
Funny how things change.
In that old thread, people cannot imagine that it might be possible to bring our engine up to 1.8L.
Today, we know how to get to 1.9L easily (usually with the later Tipo block though) and have read Sime's posts that elsewhere people are taking the engine to 2.1L.
 
Funny how things change.
In that old thread, people cannot imagine that it might be possible to bring our engine up to 1.8L.
Today, we know how to get to 1.9L easily (usually with the later Tipo block though) and have read Sime's posts that elsewhere people are taking the engine to 2.1L.
Yes, it is sort of amusing lol. I know that anything can happen, if you put enough money into it, but from a practical standpoint; can it work? If the combustion chambers are the correct spacing, and if the mounting holes for the head bolts are the same or very close 1-3mm, I would think thats about 95% of the hurdles to be crossed. If the mounting holes are slightly "off", they can be filled and drilled in the same way aluminum wheels are modified. If the chambers match up, the only issue from there should be welding up the Ferrari coolant and oil ports, and relocating the ports to match the X block. To the average Joe, all this machine shop cost, could be the deciding factor. But for someone who is either in the industry or has the skills and access to the proper equipment, this is nothing more the a bit of time invested. I may be wrong here, But I think the whole concept really is dependent on the chanbers spacing. No?
 
I may be wrong here, But I think the whole concept really is dependent on the chanbers spacing. No?

I would think it is a good bit more complicated than that. You really can't move the head bolt locations on the block, that's where a bolt or stud HAS TO pass through the head. Chances of all of them lining up and not passing through a water, oil, intake or exhaust passage on the head would be slim to none. So you would have to work around that. And then consider whether the cobbled-together solution provides adequate clamping force. And custom-design a head gasket that matches all that. Also recall that the 1.5l SOHC has funky cylinder bore spacing, 2-3 are closer than 1-2 and 3-4. The Ferrari head (or any head, for that matter) is not likely to duplicate that.

However, I like to dream too. While working on my daughters Neon a number of years ago, just for fun I set the 4V DOHC head on a Fiat block and did some comparison. It was surprisingly close. So much so that I bought a spare head to play around with the idea. Too many other projects for that one to come to fruition, but the possibility is there. With a crapload of work/trial/error of course.

Pete
 
What would the benefits to this even be other than bragging rights that can't be achieved through other means?

Seems like you'd actually be better off swapping in a whole ferrari engine if it was the name and bragging rights you were going after.
 
Too true Pete. With the head bolt, I was thinking as long as theyere eithin a couple mm of working, you could weld up the mounting holes in the head, solid and then re drill them slightly offset. I think all of these design differences and compromises are whats kept this idea in dream land. Personally Id rather buy one of those repo Dallara heads and other parts.

aarpcard: I cant really speak for others on this topic as to why or why they wouldnt want try this. For me though, bragging is not one of them. I think the original idea was spured because the heads look so similar, and particularly the 2v early 308s being considered. A bolt on, cross flow head with larger valves then can be made to fit into an X head and potentially less strain on the valve train. Thats all very enticing....probably not practical unless your a Sultan, but enticing, none the less.
 
A quick google shows the 308 v8 came as a 2927cc engine and 81mm bore, and then as a 3186cc version with an 83mm bore, gaskets from cometic come with a 81mm internal ID or a 89mm internal ID ... 81 would be way too small for our 86.4 bore engine, and 89 would likely be too big... ferrari V8 2v bores look equally spaced, the sohc Fiat isn't...

http://www.cometic.com/search.html?q=ferrari+v8+head+gasket

at a glance the bolt spacing looks way too wide.

On ebay a bare cylinder head with no valves/buckets or cams seems to be going for around $1250 usd... they are also left/right particular..looks like the left would be more of a match for oil drain galleries, but its designed to be leaning backwards (with exhaust to the rear of an x19 for example) to drain, but on a sohc it would be leaning forwards

They would all be good reasons why no one took this further.

SteveC
 
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Ferrari or any other brand does not hold magic over the best cylinder head designs. This is more a problem with perception by the individual based on what they have gained from marketing and brand inertia.

The majority of modern petro engine cylinder heads today of four valve twin cam designs use a pent roof combustion chamber. This is a result of market demand, regulations for low emissions and power output.

Given the amount of pain, hassle, grief and more involved with trying to force a cylinder head on to a block it was never designed for is not much different than trying to make a car into airplane.

If more power is needed, modify the Lampredi SOHC engine which is IMO an excellent design in many ways. Know Lampredi designed engines for Ferrari. Alternatives, install the last generation twin cam version of this Lampredi design or install a different power train all together. These choices would be FAR easier than trying to force a Ferrari (alien) cylinder head on to this Lampredi design.

If one is going to tinker with performance cylinder heads, here is one example:
http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1564765.htm

Resulting in:


Bernice
 
If more power is needed, modify the Lampredi SOHC engine which is IMO an excellent design in many ways.
Bernice

I couldn't agree more. For a lot less effort and money I have modified a Lampredi head that is working extremely well. Yes, I did put in a lot of effort, but none of it required repositioning head bolt holes or oil or coolant paths in order to get something foreign to fit to my block.

My experience is that you can get one of our Lampredi heads to pull from just over 1,000rpm (despite using 36mm venturis in dual 40mm carbs) in 2nd or 3rd gear without any stumbling, and rev all the way to 8,000rpm without running out of breath.
 
My experience is that you can get one of our Lampredi heads to pull from just over 1,000rpm (despite using 36mm venturis in dual 40mm carbs) in 2nd or 3rd gear without any stumbling, and rev all the way to 8,000rpm without running out of breath.

Sounds like you have a good setup. :)
Which cam and which exhaust header are you using?
 
Hey Uli,

The cam is an "Alquati" (made by Pittatore?), 42/76 Intake - 68/36 Exhaust, 110 degree lobe center, 10.25mm maximum lift.
Steve Cecchele can't find it in his Pittatore catalogue, so we think it was a limited grind.

The header is an Ansa, circa 1970s?
4-2-1 system, my choice for good torque and power.

IMG_1369.JPG


Cheers,

Rob
 
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^ Looking at yours, I'm starting to wish I'd ditched the AC - some much simpler setup for the serpentine, and the AC is such a PITA :D
 
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