Fiat TC/DOHC 16 valve head

Pete Whitstone

Pete Whitstone

True Classic
I guess this question is more to our overseas friends, but some stateside guys may have info too.

At some point after Fiat pulled out of the US, a version of the Twin Cam engine with a 16v head was made available, I think.

So my question is twofold. 1) what is the availability of these things; and 2) is it a direct (or near-direct) bolt-on to the traditional 2.0l block?

Thanks
Pete
 
You can fit it on the 1600cc/1900cc Stroker block as well ;) you can make a 1.6 16v engine and even a 1.9 16v engine.. But you'll be looking for an aftermarket ecu for this to work.
 
I'm not talking about the SOHC engine...

Gtturbo said:
You can fit it on the 1600cc/1900cc Stroker block as well ;) you can make a 1.6 16v engine and even a 1.9 16v engine.. But you'll be looking for an aftermarket ecu for this to work.
Click to expand...

And I think you might be. I am referring to the DOHC or Twin Cam engine that came in 1.8l and 2.0l displacements (possibly other sizes too) here in the US.

They would be fitted to Scorpions and certain other Lancias, and most Fiats besides the 128 and X1/9.

Pete
 
I am pretty sure the answer is yes. The 16v head was developed for transverse applications with the exhaust and intake flipped to the opposite sides. The coolant outlet is also flipped to the opposite end of the head.

Both of these will likely work pretty well on a X1/20 as you have more room to the side and to the back for the various bits that want to hang off in those directions.

As I recall among the many applications was a twin cam application to the Ritmo Abarth followed by various Lancias.

To the best of my knowledge the block is not changed. They may have added oil sprayers towards the bottom of the pistons to deal with the increase in power/heat.

There are some good builds on http://www.turbo124.com and of course on the Guy Croft forums.
 
Good post pete

This is something that I may be intrested in. I already have the 2L twin cam and Scorpion transaxle for my x19 that I built in 1982. May be intresting to change the head to a 4 valve.
Charlie
 
That's my intended application too...

Old Fiat Driver said:
This is something that I may be intrested in. I already have the 2L twin cam and Scorpion transaxle for my x19 that I built in 1982. May be intresting to change the head to a 4 valve.
Charlie
Click to expand...

I would love to have this going into a Scorpion, just for the engine bay size.

But no, masochist that I am, I am thinking about shoehorning this into my X1/9 race car. The class I am in is 2.0l or under, so I am at a disadvantage with the SOHC engine.

Pete
 
reply

Hey Pete. I think Fiat and Lancia started using the 16v head in around 1989. In various models like the Fiat Tipo and Lancia Thema. In 1.8 and 2.0 forms. About 150 hp in normally aspirated form and 185 to 200 + hp in turbo form. I think all had balance shafts too.

I think all the Ritmo Abarths used the 8v head.

I have no idea if the 16v heads can fit on the 8v block.

Lots of goods books out there on the Fiat/Lancia twin cam.

I have this one (great book) but I think it is now out of print :http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-AND-...-Croft-Brian-Long-/251297749160?#ht_106wt_988


But an updated version is still available at a good price ($22 + $4 shipping): Hey the Paypal I sent you for the exhaust brackets should cover that! Or "accidentally" forward this link to your wife or kids. I'm sure they are always wondering what to get you for your birthday LOL . [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Twin-Cam-Italia-Flat-Lancia-Alfa-Romeo/dp/189987058X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373561117&sr=1-1&keywords=fiat+and+lancia+twin+cams"]Twin Cam Italia: Flat-Lancia-Alfa Romeo: Phil Ward: 9781899870585: Amazon.com: Books[/ame] .Scroll down to "10 new" to find it cheaper.

Or how about this one: http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3066 . Probably $150 by the time it gets to you, Ouch. But if you are serious enough to dump a few grand into an engine swap its probably money well spent....

And while you are buying books how about: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Lancia-Montecarlo-Scorpion-Road-Portfolio/dp/1855209160/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1373561464&sr=8-2&keywords=lancia+scorpion"]Amazon.com: Lancia Montecarlo & Scorpion (Road Test Portfolio) (9781855209169): R. M. Clarke: Books[/ame]. Again scroll down to find it cheaper.

I think all the 16v engines were injected (if you dont count the super rare 124Abarth and 131 Abarth ) so to do a swap you would pretty much need a complete engine with wiring harness and computor, etc. But I'll bet over in Europe you could get a complete motor pretty cheap. And freight shouldn't be much more than $500 or so...

Yeah I know there are lots of other engine swaps possible ( and yes cheaper and maybe easier), but it sure would be nice to keep it "in the family" wouldn't it ?

Go for it !
 
16v head is possible on the 8 valve block but you will need the correct combination of the head and block ;)
 
And just what would that be?

Gtturbo said:
16v head is possible on the 8 valve block but you will need the correct combination of the head and block ;)
Click to expand...

I already knew that not all heads may fit on all blocks, thus the original reason for my post. :) Can you provide any further information?

Thanks,
Pete
 
Pete what class are you in

( But no, masochist that I am, I am thinking about shoehorning this into my X1/9 race car. The class I am in is 2.0l or under, so I am at a disadvantage with the SOHC engine. ) I autocross and am going to SSM in SCCA and that requires a block from the original manufacturer, thus the 2 L twin cam in the X19.
Charlie
 
I race in Comma

Old Fiat Driver said:
( But no, masochist that I am, I am thinking about shoehorning this into my X1/9 race car. The class I am in is 2.0l or under, so I am at a disadvantage with the SOHC engine. ) I autocross and am going to SSM in SCCA and that requires a block from the original manufacturer, thus the 2 L twin cam in the X19.
Charlie
Click to expand...

Competition Motorsports Association, which is a small one-track sanctioning body based in Hallett, OK. It's a refugee venue for the legions of racers that have had it up to HERE with the SCCA's BS, of which I am definitely one.

The classes roughly parallel SCCA classes, but are generally broader in scope. The closed-wheel classes are broken down classes similar to IT, PROD, and GT. I race in GT, where there are 3 sub-classes, which are:

GT3 - 2L or under
GT2 - 2L+ to 4L
GT1 - 4L+

Track is a 1.8m, 11 turn road course that can be run CW or CCW. It's been a while since I've been out, probably 5 years now. Thinking about getting out again.

More info at:

http://www.hallettracing.net/

Pete
 
Millers Mule

Pete
Check with Jason at Millers mule I think he has a couple of 16V heads. he was thinking of using them and might know whats involved.
 
Pete, thanks for the info

I understand the SCCA comments and your not totaly alone. However here in San Diego it's the only act in town.

Charlie
 
I wish it was "in town"!

Old Fiat Driver said:
I understand the SCCA comments and your not totaly alone. However here in San Diego it's the only act in town.

Charlie
Click to expand...

I have a 6 hour tow to get to Hallett. I'd imagine there are other venues within 6 hours of San Diego. :) But I don't know, not familiar with the area.

Pete
 
Lets take this one step further

What modern 16V FIAT/Lancia motor will bolt on to the Scorpion/Montecarlo tranny with no modification?

Warren
 
There has been plenty of discussion regarding fitting 16V heads to the 8V block on Turbo124. The only wrinkle as I recall is that the 16V head only has oil feed galleries to the cams at the flywheel end. I think the 16V head gasket will seal off the 8V mid-block oil feed(s?), but it is recommended that the redundant galleries are tapped and plugged for security and reliability.

There are obviously packaging issues to overcome with reversing the inlet and exhaust ports, but as mentioned this is not such a problem where you have a spacious engine bay originally intended for a V6.

Another feature of the reversed port TC blocks (both 8V and 16V) is the deletion of the auxiliary shaft-driven oil pump. The old style pump is replaced by a crescent gear (Audi style) oil pump driven by the crankshaft nose. This means the bulge on the side of the block, where the filter fits, is less prominent.

All the later TC engines will bolt up to the Scorpion gearbox, but obviously they will lean the wrong way. This would cause problems for an 8V reversed port head as the cams' oil bath drains will be wrong. I'm not sure if the 16V head suffers the same issue.

Hope the above is helpful for starters!

Cheers R
 
whitespy said:
What modern 16V FIAT/Lancia motor will bolt on to the Scorpion/Montecarlo tranny with no modification?
Click to expand...

None,

the 16v engine has balance shafts, and the balance shaft on the (normal) intake side of the block (which is actually the exhaust side on the 16v) bulges out and interferes with the starter motor fitment.

For N/S applications there are 131 bellhousings that fit a starter motor to the (normal) exhaust side (which is the intake side on a 16v) and if you also use a small gear eduction starter it can work...

so not a straight fit (complete engine) to a Monte/scorpicarlo.

Heads (semi complete) are plentiful out of europe... there are several types though (differing valve sizes on the intake) and the smi complete heads come with no oil spray bars, no cam cover, no cams and a lot of small parts needed to complete the build.

I bought a couple of heads, and they were well under 1k each landed in Australia, but the extra parts (especially performance cams) are not cheap (twice as many lobes for a start)

Can be fitted to a "regular" twin cam block with relative ease.








SteveC
 
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Is that head off a Tipo? It seems to be the go to head for 16v conversions. I believe it flows better than the Abarth-cast 16 v head used on the 131.
 
The two heads I have are from 16v Integrale turbos, NA head is the same but exhaust guides on the turbo are bronze, exhaust valves are different material and stem seals are different materials... there is a small in\let valve version, from Thema/dedra with VIS (variable induction system) which is NA and there are other models that have slightly different port sizes...

NA and Turbo heads have the same factory casting number, but a different part number... The pictures show the large port / large intake valve turbo 16v head.

SteveC
 
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