Front air dam / spoilers

I think there is no matter how big lip is added in front - it will do about 0 downforce. It actually would work more like air brakes.
it's more about total area of front view and what separate sections do. quite good example is old mini with max speed 146 km/h and same mini with sportspack wide fenderflares - max speed 140 kmh, if I remember wright (Had experienced that :D .
- could help two small lips on sides, not in front of radiator, because that air is going next under the car and making opposite effect
-bigger improvement would be added air scoops, to redirect air from bottom to top of the front through radiator.

Those air scoops would be more characteristicall to midengined car. I understand that 1 of 100 could cut holes in his car to modify it - but that is that special lower valance for X19 - hidden in the frunk...

I'm not aerodynamic specialist.

Down force is drag and therefore the top speed will be lower. If the front lip is a splitter then it builds an area of high pressure air above it causing downforce. Just look at some of the time attack cars, just think of it as a shelf to sit all that heavy air on. LOL this will cause huge amounts of drag. not great for a 75HP Fiat but when HP is unlimited... The same design concept will cause down force on the fiat think of it as taking air that would normally go under the car and rerouting it over the car causing lower pressure under the car and higher pressure above the car. now the effects would be way less than the car pictured but it may be enough to get rid of the light nose effect of the X. Years ago when I first started driving I had a Ford Pinto..... I had to modify it, just like every other car I have ever owned, I built the engine and was playing out in the desert, I found that at about 105mph the nose started lifting and getting unstable so I built an airdam on the front. next time out in the desert it was about 115mph that the back end started getting light, then came the Porsche style whale tail and then the 132mph top end was totally stable.

If you look at the X in profile the front lip is about 2" higher than the floor of the car so it's letting more air under the front than can easily flow under the body plus all the radiator air dumps under the car as well causing a high pressure area under the nose. Now I'm not an aerodynamics engineer either so everything I just wrote may be BS but it seems to me that is what's happening.
images.duckduckgo.com.jpg
 
Couldn't agree more. I guess I should repeat one of my prior statements:


That being said, I do find that some of the samples above actually improve the appearance of the X.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be argumentative, there was supposed to be a smiley in there ;)

That said, I do truly believe that the vast majority of the body kits do, at best, adapt the car to a current trend whilst robbing it of its timelessness. I would include what I consider to be the "factory" body kits in that league as well (i.e. the US 1300 bumpers and the 1500 model). The car that came off the drawing board was really the Euro 1300 / US 1974.

Not all designs even achieve a timeless design in their initial (factory) manifestation, e.g. the Ferrari Testarossa is simply too "fussy" and will always look 80's whilst a 308 is truly timeless.

My concern is that body kits are very much influenced by current fashions and that they may further impoverish the gene pool of unmolested vehicles.

Still, I have a front spoiler on my car (albeit "factory"):

IMG_8442.JPG


Cheers,
Dom.
 
Wow, lots of excellent input. Thank you to everyone.

RJ, seems like I've noticed a few different versions of the large front "chin spoiler" (the VW guys call this style a "duck bill"). I like the one on the yellow car (not sure if the blue one is the same...a bit hard to see). Is this also the one on Dom's light green car (see his post above)? Dom refers to his as "factory"; I did not realize Fiat offered such a piece. Does anyone reproduce it? The other versions of a large spoiler (like this) are not as "thick" and don't extend as wide, therefore do not look to be as well integrated. For example the FAZA spoiler:
1166_2_.jpg

As you say, the boldness of a large spoiler helps offset the "slack-jaw" appearance of the X. Here's an even bolder use of this treatment on the Ferrari 288 GTO concept:
2020-ferrari-288-gto-render.jpg




Brian P, I'd like to see what that red car will look like when finished. I agree, it is more (too?) modern. As Daniel mentioned, the discussion here is primarily on the front nose, but it all goes together; actually all body mods should be considered as a 'package' rather than individual pieces, I was just trying to simplify things by breaking it up. Ultimately I also want to discuss design options for the rear end, the removable top, and fender flares.



Odie, actually I can see how that might work. However, just looking at the photo it seems it would blend into the X better if only the portion below this (red) line was used:
IMG_6285.jpg

Especially with a bumperless application, it would "almost" give a bit of the 288 GTO style:
1984_Ferrari_288GTO-0-1536.jpg




Janis (mkmini), you point out an issue that I've been going back and forth on; is my goal really more about function or appearance? As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, ideally I'd like to accomplish both. I agree, form follows function (I once did a paper on that). But the ability to properly test any design changes (with 'scientific' results) is out of my reach. So maybe the reality is I am considering the aesthetic aspect more? Honestly I struggle with that a little. But, at least in my case, the X is not a track car where ultimate performance is necessary. And as I also stated at the beginning, I'm not concerned with preserving the originality of the X (this discussion is all about customizing). Regardless, I certainly value your design background to help balance out my 'show' vs 'go' tendencies.
In reference to the air flow for the radiator. I agree the original design moves the air in the opposite direction from ideal; down instead of up. In addition to poor aerodynamic effect, it also reduces cooling flow across the radiator. Actually you might be surprised, a lot of members have cut openings in the hood to redirect this flow upwards as you describe. So certainly more than 1 in 100. They have mentioned a couple of findings; it precludes the ability to store the top in the trunk, in summer time with the top off you can feel the hot air from the radiator come over the windshield, but some also experienced lower coolant temperatures (a plus).
Like with your Mini analogy, another good example of how modifications can actually REDUCE performance at times; really big brakes that are heavier can (in some cases) decrease acceleration, reduce ride quality, and even increase breaking distances!


Dom, no apology needed...we are on the same page. ;)
It is true many body kits follow style trends and become dated. However some actually begin new "timeless designs" on their own; perhaps the Dallara body is one example?
Please tell me more about your front spoiler, I like it. That was a factory piece?


Many more fantastic comments have been offered here, I am enjoying this. Thanks everyone, please continue to add to it.

[Special K, are my cat herding skills getting any better?] --- inside joke.
 
RJ, seems like I've noticed a few different versions of the large front "chin spoiler" (the VW guys call this style a "duck bill"). I like the one on the yellow car (not sure if the blue one is the same...a bit hard to see). Is this also the one on Dom's light green car (see his post above)? Dom refers to his as "factory"; I did not realize Fiat offered such a piece. Does anyone reproduce it?

This spoiler was standard on the "special series" offered in '78 and '79 on European and Australian cars (along with CD58s, ladder stripes and deckchair striping on the seats):

9316a2de4a90bb9010e719fa2dc8066d--fiat-x-s-cars.jpg


I got a replacement from Henk (in fibreglass instead of rubber):

http://www.x19partsholland.nl/CATALOGUS/tabid/2470/ProdID/4998/CatID/628/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Cheers,
Dom.
 
probably would have. but that would have required me to cut it. I actually did nothing but attached it on with self taping screws. it was intended as a "why not" but I ended up leaving it for about a year. I am still trying to dig up a picture.

Odie
 
My personal taste:

Probably the best lines on the X1/9 are on the stock '74 nose. The later bumpers absolutely ruined those lines.

Those lines are iconic Bertone. You see those lines and you instantly know it's a Bertone. Those lines are incorporated in to practically every Bertone concept car and the vast majority of their production cars (and I'd say nearly every mid-engined one).

If you alter those lines, you remove the Bertone from the X1/9. You remove what makes the X1/9 and Italian exotic.

Case in point:

X1/9
x19.jpg


Ferrari 308 GT4
308.jpg


Lancia Stratos
stratos.jpg


Laborghini Urraco
urraco.jpg


Lamborghini Countach
countach.jpg


Lamborghini Jalpa
jalpa.jpg


Lamborghini Miura
miura.jpg


If you want to reduce front end lift, the best thing you can do is remove the firewall behind the radiator and duct some vents into the hood. Won't alter the look of the car. Won't increase drag, and reduces front end lift.
 
Those lines are iconic Bertone. You see those lines and you instantly know it's a Bertone. Those lines are incorporated in to practically every Bertone concept car and the vast majority of their production cars (and I'd say nearly every mid-engined one).
True. And I respect what you are saying; "If you alter those lines, you remove the Bertone from the X1/9." However at some point each of the examples you cite were offered with a front bumper/fascia/air-dam/spoiler redesign or special-package treatment to change those lines, removing or covering or detracting from the negative space under the nose (in several cases Bertone performed the changes):

Ferrari 308 GT4
ferrari_dino_308_gt4_us-spec_3-1-1024x683 (1).jpg


Lancia Stratos
c_17344.jpg


Laborghini Urraco
Lamborghini Urraco Silhouette front.jpg


Lamborghini Countach
remote.jpg.jpg


Lamborghini Jalpa
Lamborghini-Jalpa-101.jpg


Lamborghini Miura
lamborghini-miura-jota-for-sale-001-1.jpg

lamborghini-miura-jota-for-sale-002-1.jpg

1968_Lamborghini_MiuraP40022.jpg


And there are numerous Bertone concept cars without that nose line. We have already shown a few. Here is one that hints that classic nose line but adds extra features to 'reduce' it:
Lamborghini-Miura-Concept_2-2ze8ieekwz30l2wlbglcsq.jpg


I'm not saying it 'needs' to be changed, nor that it even 'should' be changed. Merely I prefer the slightly more modern take on it; softening the rearward rake, making it less exaggerated. What I am suggesting is the possibility of designing 'enhancement features' (different bumper, grill, spoiler, fascia treatments) to reduce the overbite (as it was referred). But I certainly acknowledge this is a subjective matter of taste preference.
 
Sorry to be an anorak but the Urraco is actually a Silhouette. Same front end as a Urraco though! As far as V8 Lamborghinis go, the Silhouette is my favorite...

This whole front end business seems a difficult one to tackle. Very easy to veer out into left field with design choices. I am in a similar boat with the Scorpion but with that car's squared off front the process is easier. As is apparent with the Miura Jota, when Bob Wallace added the chin spoiler it probably helped tremendously with top speed but visually marred the lines.

I do like the work done to the white X1/9 from Japan though. Also I appreciate the familial resemblance of the X and the Lancia Stratos. I'd have a lime green X and incorporate a few cues from that.
 
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Here's some I found:
Cleanly integrated front end here
Screen Shot 2017-10-18 at 6.33.39 AM.png

These speedster wedge Dallaras look so cool!
Screen Shot 2017-10-18 at 6.37.40 AM.png


This one is interesting for its excessiveness.
Screen Shot 2017-10-18 at 6.38.26 AM.png
 
The nose and fender flares of the Ferrari 308 are similar to the front end of the X1/9. I like the way the air dam blends into the front fenders. The US versions of the 308 have a smaller air dam, which I prefer over the euro models.

308.jpg


Jim
 
Here is another classic 'negative chin' front end. With the addition of a very simple, very clean spoiler under the nose, the 'void' is greatly reduced. I could see this applied to the X:
1980-BMW-M1-front-view-1024x640.jpg
 
I was reminded of another well known vehicle that suffers the huge over-bite affliction, and how they attempted to hide it (BTW, I'm NOT a fan of this car):
delorean-dmc-12-c381813092016190135_7.jpg

delorean-dmc-12-05.jpg


This is similar to the M1's nose/spoiler treatment (prior post). If it was the same color as the body it would work much better. As I said with the BMW photo, I think this approach could be used on the X if it was properly shaped and fitted.

One owner took extra measures to extend the spoiler further down:
295081-1000-0.jpg
 
Came across images of another Bertone concept vehicle. This is a modern design with a hint of a reward rake at the grill but without the exaggerated reverse-angle line under the nose:

002 (1).jpg

001.jpg
 
Here is another classic 'negative chin' front end. With the addition of a very simple, very clean spoiler under the nose, the 'void' is greatly reduced. I could see this applied to the X:
View attachment 5878

Right, but the original M1 prototype (right here in Munich!) doesn't have it:

upload_2017-10-21_0-29-40.png


To me, all of this represents that the original designers aim for a "clean" appearance and then, for whatever reason, things like spoilers get tacked on to production models (although for good reason in the case of the original Audi TT).

Cheers,
Dom.
 
the original M1 prototype (right here in Munich!) doesn't have it
then, for whatever reason, things like spoilers get tacked on

Agreed. I'm sure the original designers felt strongly their design should be left alone and no spoilers or other bits should ever be added. Quite likely it was someone in marketing (or similar department) that was responsible for deciding the spoiler (and whatever other "tack on's") needed to be added to boost sales. Something of a "give the customers what they want", despite the original designer's beliefs. It may also represent a change in styles over time; when the design first came out the "clean" appearance was fashionable, but with progress came racing influences like aerodynamic aids and cultural influences like 'flashy styles'. It was all part of the lifestyle at that time. There was a period during this era when things got really out of hand with over the top extravagant "tack on's". But living in Southern California all my life I was part of that culture where excess was never enough...we always wanted more.

None the less, I certainly do not dispute the purity of any original design. And I do not think that every X, nor every owner, should be changed. But for me the stock design is just too plain. I want mine to be custom, different, designed the way I think it should have been. I want a more performance-oriented, aggressive-looking front end. Be assured however, I never project my wants on anyone else. In fact I have high respect for those that prefer to maintain the purity of a original design; someone needs to balance out the like of me. So please continue to contribute here, I enjoy hearing everyone's input.
 
A recent magazine article had a photo of another 70's classic that reminded me of this discussion. Although I've never been involved in the Japanese car culture, there are some iconic examples that went through design progressions over time...along the lines of what I said in my last post.
Consider this example of the 240Z's nose. The original design had the same 'reverse' or 'negative' slope under the bumper:

datsun-240z-2.jpg


A "spoiler" was designed by the after-market ("BRE" I believe) to reduce front end lift:
tumblr_mwn986m2aK1rjajjso1_1280.jpg

7728584-1970-datsun-240z-std-c.jpg


Then a "air dam" was developed which completely transformed the front end:
963006776dsc6725.jpg

1972-Datsun-240Z-Front1-940x636.jpg


And additional 'modern' versions have developed:
Nissan240Z.jpg

0f9308bfb7d80b32239c2ea4e9ecd6ec--tuner-cars-jordan.jpg


These were inspired by racing versions of the car:
1972-Datsun-240Z-Petrolicious.jpg


A rendering of the Z with it's design cleaned-up and modernized a bit:
16098074_large.jpg
 
Part of my intent with this "redesign" exercise is to find ways to reduce the 'void' under the nose of the X1/9 (below the front bumper line). A photo posted by "hotx19" (in the thread on headlight conversions) showing the "Abarth Stradale" he is building gave me another thought. By bringing out the lower corners, from the front of the fender arches around to the grill opening, the lower valance can be redesigned without adding a large spoiler or air dam (other than the stock one). This changes the area as desired but retains the front appearance of the original design for the most part. In the case of the Stradale it is done to add driving lights. But something similar could also be done without the large lights. Take a look at "hotx19"s photo to see what I'm referring to. Here the extra set of lower lights have not been added yet so you can get the idea of what I'm describing (the panel would be smooth rather have openings for the lights):
motion_pro_fuel_inject_clean_kit_hv2.jpg


I like how the corners blend into the stock (early) type front 'spoiler' and grill. It could be done without fender flares as well...blending into the stock fender arches at the sides. The openings for the extra round lights would not necessarily be a part of the shape, so imagine the panel smoothly blending around the corner to bring the contours together. These could be add-on panels to cover the otherwise negative-slope rearward-angled corners to achieve a bolder, fuller nose.

Actually, if you compare the appearance of the X's front end in his photo (with no bumpers and a minor clean-up of the surrounding area) it has a resemblance to the Datsun Z's nose in the photos posted above (prior post).
 
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My Russian is a little weak, but the video roughly translates as:

"This is the Russian "Lada" version of the Fiat X1/9. As you can see, we make much better cars here in Russia than those Italians ever did. This example has never been repaired, restored, or even washed...this is how cars survive the very mild weather and excellent roads we have. Just look at how nice the super highways are in these scenes. Even after hundreds of thousands of kilometers the Lada runs great with its stock turbocharged engine."

And he goes on and on about how great everything is there.
Janis, did I get that right?

All joking aside, I really like the bumpers / facias on it. Makes the style look much more integrated and modern. Are those part of a aftermarket kit? (afraid my Russian did not get that part). Great vid Janis, thanks for sharing.
 
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