Fuel Injectors

Larry

Larry

True Classic
I've got some injectors I picked up some number of years ago that are labeled X1/9 and others that are labeled 124. The part numbers are different so I'm wondering if they injectors are car specific?

The part numbers are: 4430293 (those are labeled X1/9) and 4393596 (those are labeled 124).

Same question for the cold start injector - the one I have shows a part number of: 4398118 - were they specific to a car or will it work on either one?

Larry
'79 X1/9
 
I did a quick search on the cold start injector P/N and came up with "Fiat spider cold start valve Fiat X1/9 berttone "5th Injector". also fits Pininfarina Spider Fiat brava other models Fiat . Fiat 4398118 7579289 Lancia Beta"

For the X1/9 labeled injector that you have I found "It replaces Fiat part numbers 4393596 and 4430293 and fits 124 Spiders, 131 Bravas, Stradas and X 1/9s."
 
Hi Larry. Hope this helps...

The following info is derived from my genuine Bosch Fuel Injection catalog, North American version, dated 1993. Guess it is not absolute gospel....but surely right from Bosch should be as accurate as you could get....

The fuel injector for all X1/9 1980 to 1988 is listed as Bosch # 0 280 150 123 and is Fiat # 4430293. It is only also common to Fiat Strada.

The fuel injector for 124 spider and 131 1980-1981 is Bosch # 0 280 150 121 and is Fiat # 4393596. Common to nothing else.

The fuel injector for 124 Spyder 1982 is Bosch # 0 280 150 127. No Fiat # given. Common to nothing else.

Strangely....the catalog does not list the 124 spyder at all past 1982 ( and neither under Pininfarina ). Nor do they list any Lancia models at all. Using those Bosch #s in a google search indicates they also fit some later euro models like Argentia and Dedra and such.

So....are the X1/9 and 124 injectors the same ?? Tough to tell !!!!! And depends who you believe LOL......

MWB - and some other aftermarket efi suppliers claim that all the above injectors are all the same. With MWB claiming the only reason for different Fiat and Bosch #s is that.....the injectors are supplied complete with the inlet hose already on them, and that the hoses are different length between the X1/9/Strada, and 124/131 applications. Hence the different parts #s - but they say the injectors themselves are the same - thus identical flow, etc.

On the other hand....other web sources that give flow specs for different Bosch injectors, actually show slightly different flow rates between the 121 and 123 injectors.

Verdict..i dunno for sure where the truth lies. Personally....they are probably pretty close to the same....but dont think i would mix the 2 within the same engine....

As for the cold start valve.......same catalog shows:

The cold start valve for X1/9 1980 to 1988 is Bosch # 0 280 170 031 and is Fiat # 4429210. Common to Alfa Spyder '82-'89, BMW 325e '85-'88, BMW 528e '82-'87, Strada '80-'81, Porsche 912e '76, Renault:Fuego 1.6 '82-'82, R17TL '75-'77, R18i '80-'83, Triumph TR7 2.0 '80-'81, VW: Beetle '75-'79 and Type 2 bus '78.

The cold start valve for Fiat 124 spider and 131 '80-'82 is Bosch # 0 280 170 041 and is Fiat # 4398118. Common to nothing else.

According to MWB......these 2 cold start injectors have the same flow rate and function....BUT...the fuel inlet barb is in a different position. And can be interchanged if you re-route the fuel line to the inlet and use an appropriate longer/or shorter fuel hose.

So Larry...if you have a 4398118....compare it to the cold start valve currently on your X1/9 and see if you agree ??

Hope this helps...but I probably just confused you more !!!!

Doug
 
Larry said:
I've got some injectors I picked up some number of years ago that are labeled X1/9 and others that are labeled 124. The part numbers are different so I'm wondering if they injectors are car specific?

The part numbers are: 4430293 (those are labeled X1/9) and 4393596 (those are labeled 124).

Same question for the cold start injector - the one I have shows a part number of: 4398118 - were they specific to a car or will it work on either one?

Larry
'79 X1/9
Click to expand...


According to this table http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm (scroll down to the third Bosch "paragraph") there is a capacity difference between the SOHC and the DOHC injectors:
Bosch Part # 0-280-150-121 Alfa 2.0l, Fiat 2.0l, Lancia 4-2.0l, Pininfarina 4-2.0l -
Bosch Part # 0-280-150-123 Alfa v6-2.5l, Bertone 4-1.5l, Fiat 4-1.5l, Opel 2.9l, Renault 4-1.6l, Triumph 2.0l, v8-3.5l

The table seems to be saying that the SOHC injectors flow more than the DOHC injectors, which seems a bit counter-intuitive!
 
I recall from a Bosch training seminar many (many) years ago that similar Bosch injectors might have very minor differences from model to model to offer a specific design specification for each application. Those differences might not have been much, but were considered "correct" for the particular system. While several injectors might have the same dimensions and therefore could be interchanged physically, each had been designed for its intended application with corresponding performance values. They seemed almost religious about everything having to be exactly correct.

However some years ago when Bosch changed ownership (merged under a larger umbrella) they went through several major reorganizations. Included was a massive streamlining of their product offerings. Lots of similar part numbers were combined into one number, many products were eliminated and substitute numbers listed, and basically a big reduction in the overall inventory to simplify their line. Along with those changes they introduced a new numbering system with "universal" product identifiers. Cross reference charts would list hundreds (in some cases) of the old part numbers under one new universal number. Obviously they had decided all of the minor differences between each part's design wasn't necessary, because there is no way all of those old part numbers were the same item (as they now are). Apparently they aren't as religious about things any more.

As Doug said, the two injectors initially asked about here are likely very similar but not identical. Both should work fine in either application, but I would not mix them on the same engine. I think it is much more important that all four injectors are functioning properly (good spray patterns and correct fuel volume rate), regardless of the part number.

Cold start injectors are much less critical. They only operate for short periods under certain conditions when the whole system isn't at its peak potential. They are a very simple design and not that precise. So I'd use pretty much any cold start injector that will fit the manifold.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
The table seems to be saying that the SOHC injectors flow more than the DOHC injectors, which seems a bit counter-intuitive!
Click to expand...
I know what you mean. The injectors for the Uno Turbo have significantly less flow than the ones for the X1/9. Granted the X is 1.5L while the UT is 1.3L, but the UT is turbo charged with a much higher performance output.
It might have to do with how the ECU's are programmed for each system.
 
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

It looks like I'll be using the 4 NOS Remanufactured Injectors I picked up from a XWeb member in 2017.

Unless someone has 2 NOS X1/9 Injectors for sale... I picked up 2 NOS X1/9 Injectors maybe 10 or so years ago.

Any advice to make sure the injectors are ready to go from having been in their what look like original boxes/wrapping for the past number of years?

Larry
 
Once you are ready to use them you could use some carb cleaner to clean them out. Hooking up a 9v battery will allow you to excercise them and spray through them to get rid of any goo that may be in there from production testing and any preservative that may have been applied.
 
Karl's excellent suggestion to do a quick flush of the injectors reminded me of an item I saw on eBay. You really won't need this to perform a quick rinse in your case (although it might make things a little easier to do). But having been reminded of it, I thought I'd post a link for others to review. It can help to clean dirty injectors or at least do a basic spray pattern test.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-Car-Fu...er-Kit-Set-Vehicle-Cleaners-Tool/172823073408

I made a injector testing/cleaning rig with a extra FI fuel pump, pressure gauge, wire harness similar to what comes with the above item, some fuel hose and appropriate attachments, a couple of containers, and a stand to hold everything. Basically it does the same thing but with any solvent I choose and in any volume I wish. Trying to clean old injectors is a bit of 'hit or miss'; it requires quite a lot of flushing in both directions with some seriously strong solvent, and still may not be successful. So a spray can of carb cleaner (like the above item uses) isn't enough in many cases. Plus having a graduated cylinder to measure the flow rate, at a known pressure is helpful. But that eBay item is very inexpensive and convenient for a simple cleaning job if the injectors aren't too bad.
 
Oops... the 4 NOS Injectors are for a Spider. From what I've read through the answers on this post, the hoses are different lengths. Silly question, but can I just swap the hoses between the Spider injectors to the X1/9 injectors?
 
kmead said:
Once you are ready to use them you could use some carb cleaner to clean them out. Hooking up a 9v battery will allow you to excercise them and spray through them to get rid of any goo that may be in there from production testing and any preservative that may have been applied.
Click to expand...

That's what I did with mine. I attached an aerosol can of carb cleaner and used a 9 V battery. Spraying into a glass container will allow you to see the spray pattern.

Brian
 
beezee said:
That's what I did with mine. I attached an aerosol can of carb cleaner and used a 9 V battery. Spraying into a glass container will allow you to see the spray pattern.

Brian
Click to expand...

Did you just stick the can o' carb cleaner into the hose?
 
Larry said:
Did you just stick the can o' carb cleaner into the hose?
Click to expand...

The can I bought had a large nozzle so I ran a hose from the can to the injector and tightened secured everything with hose clamps. Then I applied battery voltage to the injector and pressed the nozzle on the can. Gunk products have the large nozzle.

Brian
 
Larry said:
but can I just swap the hoses between the Spider injectors to the X1/9 injectors
Click to expand...
Yes. Often replacement injectors do not include the hoses, so they must be added. It is regular 7.5mm fuel injection (10 bar) fuel hose. Just be sure to use the proper FI style hose clamps:
fic_7.jpg
 
The guy I sent my injectors out to called to tell me he can only get one to work consistently. After an hour or so worth of research, many roads lead to GB Remanufacturing part 85213107 as a replacement. Lots of places to buy them with widely varying prices, but RockAuto has them at a rock bottom price $23.79 plus a refundable $10.00 core fee. GB REMANUFACTURING 85213107 Fuel Injector | RockAuto

I didn't find any discussion about these on the site and wondered if anyone had any experience with them.
 
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I happen to personally know the engineer at GB Remanufacturing (GBR) that heads up the injector rebuilding service. We met several years ago at a major trade show where GBR had a nice display. I'd used their products previously and therefore recognized the name, so I stopped to look and ask questions. Learned that the company is located near where I once lived in SoCal. In our conversation it turns out he and I had a lot in common; we grew up close to one another and know a couple mutual friends. I've since had to relocate to Vegas for family matters, so now we only exchange emails occasionally.

Interesting story about the GBR company. They started as a small family business in a garage that has evolved over the years. The owner has passed and now his wife runs it. Despite the fact they've grown considerably, they are still run much like a small family business; friendly, relatively lean staff - most of which have worked there for a very long time. He is one of the original members and really likes his job. Although they offer other services, rebuilding injectors is their bread and butter.

My contact tells me there are very few injectors that cannot be rebuilt and brought back to original spec. For the most part it involves a massive amount of specialized cleaning, plus replacement of certain internal components. In some cases it can take a day or more of constant cleaning to get them to work right. So the cost to rebuild them is as much for time as for materials/components. The result is said to perform exactly like new. One of the few reasons a used injector cannot be saved is if the metal tip ("needle") and surrounding insulator ("ceramic") has been broken or damaged, such as might happen if it was dropped. Otherwise they can be cleaned and rebuilt in most cases. So I wonder what the reason was for three of your four not being rebuildable? Mind mentioning which service you sent them to?

I'm also told RockAuto is their largest seller of GBR's products. Therefore R.A. gets a price break and can list them at such good selling prices. However it seems R.A.'s prices on many parts often fluctuate rather wildly for some reason. For example a couple years ago I bought some injectors for a BMW that were less than $30 each. Now I see those same ones are about $50. The injectors for our cars were also used on many other vehicles so there should be a decent supply of them. Therefore the price may be more stable. I'd have no problem going that route, certainly much less costly than any other option I know of. But I might be biased so please listen to the experiences of others first.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
I happen to personally know the engineer at GB Remanufacturing (GBR) that heads up the injector rebuilding service. . . . So I wonder what the reason was for three of your four not being rebuildable? Mind mentioning which service you sent them to?
Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff. That is a great story - its a small world.
I got good news today - I got a text from my guy this afternoon and he told me that he was able to get them all working fine. His question - how long had they been sitting, because they really smelled bad even after the initial cleanings. I told him about my coca cola colored gas and he understood. I used a guy named Frank LeoGrande (www.leogranderacing.com) in Brooklyn who runs a small speed shop. He was recommended by a friend here in Jersey who runs a small shop that restores/maintains old BMWs, VWs, and other old machines (www.gutenparts.com) - that's where he sends all his old injectors for service. I have nothing to compare it to but the transaction couldn't have been smoother.
 
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Id like to tag along with this thread. I am trying to clean mine out.. I am pretty certain that they have had fuel in them since 1987 or so. I think I got two of them to click under extensive cleaning and 12V. Question: do they have screen filters in them? I cant find an exploded view or similar. But I am concerned that they may be wrecked if they had filters. If so I will be looking for replacement options :(
 
Yes they have a little filter right at the inlet. You can actually see it with the hose removed. And replacement filters are cheap and easy to install.

Here is where it is and what it looks like:
EV1.jpg
Clean-and-Dirty-Fuel-Injector-Filters.jpg


The old filter will likely look like the one on the right - not only dirty but just a screen without the plastic "frame" over it. The new ones tend to look like the one on the left, with a plastic frame. But there are a few styles. The thing is getting the correct size. Fortunately our injectors use the most common type/size filter for injectors and they are easily found.

To remove the old filter use a sheet metal screw to thread into the brass top 'ring'. Then give it a hard yank with a pair of pliers or vice-grips. You may need to use a small slide hammer if it is really stuck. To install the new one just tap in the brass ring, it is a bit of a press fit.

I recommend removing the old filters before cleaning the injectors. Then install new ones after you are done. It may take a lot of cleaning to get the old injectors working right, but pretty much any condition can be saved so long as there is no physical damage. Be sure to flush it both directions (with the solenoid open) at first, to help free up the needle valve. Ultrasound cleaning machines wok best, and pulsing the solenoid (trigger 12V on and off) to work the valve.
 
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