Green fiat 128 1100 1976

How do you get 2000cc of swept volume? the longest stroke stock crank (78.4mm) and 87 bore is 1860cc give or take...
Not a stock crank... It's a ZRP billet crank. 79mm stroke. Yes, technically it's a 1.9 liter, not 2... I had to get a 1600 block from eastern Europe because the oil galleries interfere in the 1500, they were relocated in the 1600 for more clearance.
 
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I visited the old owner tonight and he said he always used this carb on it which would fit the manifold that i got with the car
He said that because he always ran a smaller carb he used those thin and bigger valves to get more air into the engine ( he showed me a set thats the same as i have and they are very thin compared to the original ones which he also had a set of ) and thats why he could get such high numbers whith this 2 step carb
And yeah its pretty much gonna be a race engine in a car that only has vw mk1 rabbit/mk1 golf front adjustable coilovers which i modifyd and in the rear it just has some stiffer schock asorbers and original leaf spring
im not planning on modifing the rest of the car very much (only time will tell ofc😜)

He also has a jetting kit for that carb which he would let me use for free so i dont have to buy one and would help me tune the carb right if i buy one like that so im really struggeling on what carb im gonna buy
I have a box of three DCNVH's available for you inexpensively. They basically are DCNF's. SteveC can validate the potential for us, he's written before. I paid much more than what I take. It would be super cool to see one or two of these on your 128, like yours a lot, you're motivating me to finish my newly built 1500 and install.


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I have a box of three DCNVH's available for you inexpensively. They basically are DCNF's. SteveC can validate the potential for us, he's written before. I paid much more than what I take. It would be super cool to see one or two of these on your 128, like yours a lot, you're motivating me to finish my newly built 1500 and install.


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Hm i like that idea of those carbs on my 128
I will have to think about it as i wont have the engine ready for a while (i have very little time for it sadly as im working 6 days a week) so when im getting close to mounting the carb etc i will get in contact with you
What would you want for those carbs?
 
Given all the requirements for a street engine that you list above, I think you make an argument for a smaller carb - idle, pull well from lower revs, etc. :)
Actually I've built many engines with long duration (42/82) cams, high compression (over 11:1) and dual (40DCNF carbs with 34 chokes) carbs that idle smoothly at 800 revs, will pull smoothly from idle and have over 120lb/ft of torque, it's all about the right combination of parts and cylinder head preparation. I've also built several 1500's that made very close to 100hp at the wheels using the standard inlet / exhaust manifolds and standard valve sizes using a 34DMTR and a 40/80 cam, once again it's the right combination of bits and a few tuning tools like an adjustable cam gear and enlarging the plenum volume with the use of a spacer and the right exhaust system after the standard manifold, and of course valve and seat prep in the head to get enough air flow

I don't think we agree that a 32 DMTR will work on a hot street engine. And that's OK with me. :D
I didn't actually say that at all. I simply stated it can end up a compromise, with fueling distribution issues due to the carbs orientation, possible low manifold vacuum with the wrong choice of cam creating atomisation / aux venturi signal issues, and the air speed at high rpm creating fuel puddling issues (hence the use of a large spacer under the carb)

A 34dmtr21 is a great choice as it will definitely flow enough air to make around 115/120 at the crank, but it takes a good working knowledge of how a carburettor actually works to get there, it's noit a straight up bolt on out of the box.

An even better choice is a single DCNF pattern carb (oriented correctly) as it has the benefits of having every part that matters available in a selection of sizes. Venturi size can be tailored to the engines requirements, auxiliary venturis, pump jets and pump cam are all things that a dmtr cant offer as tuning tools.

Venturi size being the main one that a DMTR cant offer as they are cast in and a fixed size, and it should be noted that SCCA use of the DMTR required enlarging the venturi size for any meaningful power results, as the stock 22/22 venturi size is way too small for good results, boring them out to the maximum achievable size of almost 28mm certainly gives more air flow for WOT, but it isn't any good for a road car.

SteveC
 
Hey Steve! I currently have a phenolic 13mm spacer between the carb and manifold, would I see a benefit by increasing that thickness? If so, how thick? Current spec is stock 1500 bottom end, 1300 head, 231 cam: Duration: 231 degrees duration (intake / exhaust) @ .050 lift
35-75 / 75-35 (seat-to-seat)
Lift: 10.33mm (.407") maximum lift
Lobe center: 112 degree, 34 DMTR-21 w/ vacuum advance...
Also, separate question, what's the biggest you can bore the 1600 block? Is 87mm it?
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Hm i like that idea of those carbs on my 128
I will have to think about it as i wont have the engine ready for a while (i have very little time for it sadly as im working 6 days a week) so when im getting close to mounting the carb etc i will get in contact with you
What would you want for those carbs?
150 us plus shipping. I like your car
 
Hey Steve! I currently have a phenolic 13mm spacer between the carb and manifold, would I see a benefit by increasing that thickness? If so, how thick?
It's not a new idea to run a spacer under a carb, it's very common practice on a V8 to increase plenum volume, it's also a way to blend the air flow from a round hole of a carb throat with a butterfly in it into the shape of the plenum opening.

I try and use the spacer to do both.

Air passing thru the venturi at high air speed has a lot of momentum, and even though it's light the air still has mass. As the air has passed thru the venturi it also becomes laden with droplets (hopefully very finely atomised ones) which have a greater mass. At high revs / high air speed a lot of the fuel droplets don't make the turn into the manifold runners and travels straight ahead and hits the floor of the plenum. Adding a spacer, and blending the spacer from two round holes into one oval shape helps to slow the air (and fuel droplets) down and more of them will make the turn.

This is not an uncommon tuning tool, there are plenty of high speed videos showing wet flow thru a manifold of a v8, the subsequent puddling of fuel at the plenum base, and small rivers of raw fuel running down the floor of the manifold runners and into the cylinder... sure out little sohc isnt a V8, but the air and fuel mix behaves in precisely the same way.

When I spent several saturday mornings on the dyno tuning my "stealth" 1500 (use the stock manifolds so visually the engine looked stock) one thing that showed up were AFR inconsistencies at high RPM... the AFR line would become really jagged (i.e. not a smooth curve) and simply wasn't consistent from one run to the next, leaning out or richening the mixture at WOT seemed to have little effect of the AFR's shown. My friend Darryl (who owns the dyno) suggested it may be fuel puddling and inconsistencies in fuel distribution. I came back the following weekend armed with a selection of spacers and the setup that made a real difference was a stack of OE type spacers, glued together with the holes blended into an oval shape at the manifold side, the AFR curve smoothed out and power picked up, jetting changes showed on the graph. The spacer in the end was over 2 inches thick with 6 x 10mm spacers glued together.

Will it have the same effect on your engine, maybe or maybe not... your spec is different to what mine was, there's a different compression ratio / different cam, different head, different exhaust ... a different engine.

Current spec is stock 1500 bottom end, 1300 head, 231 cam: Duration: 231 degrees duration (intake / exhaust) @ .050 lift
35-75 / 75-35 (seat-to-seat)
Lift: 10.33mm (.407") maximum lift
Lobe center: 112 degree, 34 DMTR-21 w/ vacuum advance...
odd that you've retarded the cam 2 degrees, a 35/75 set at split overlap would have the LCA's at 110. I've usually found 108 inlet works best with my go-to 40/80 grind, but again my headflow / compression ratio and cam choice is different to yours, so it's comparing an apple to an orange.


Also, separate question, what's the biggest you can bore the 1600 block? Is 87mm it?
I've never bored a late sohc block, so I'm not sure. Pistons for the closed deck engine come all the way to 87.4 (1mm over) but the head gaskets only have an 87.2 ID to the fire ring, as a general rule there is little to be gained by boring to the absolute threshold, you gain mere CC's per cylinder.

SteveC
 
" odd that you've retarded the cam 2 degrees"

It's been a while since I set it up, I would have to consult my notes but those are just the cam specs from Midwest's site, I'm not sure if that's where I ended up.. It dynoed out at around 80 at the wheels... The 242 cam I got for the 1.9 is 108°....
 
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" odd that you've retarded the cam 2 degrees"

It's been a while since I set it up, I would have to consult my notes but those are just the cam specs from Midwest's site, I'm not sure if that's where I ended up.. It dynoed out at around 80 at the wheels...
I've done a couple of pretty close to identical 1500's that ended up at 99hp at the wheels, and using the exact same recipe of manifolds / cam / carb / compression ratio and throat sizes / valve mods I've had a couple of customers assemble their own engines and get almost the same results (within the usual tolerance of dyno numbers) so I'd say this is up around the top number possible... also have loads of torque and a nice broad flat torque curve.

The same combination of parts but with a euro cam is only a couple of HP down, but going to a longer duration (42/82) cam made the engine rather flat, so I figured there is a tipping point where the increased overlap begins to upset the flow due to cylinder robbing / reversion... but that possibly only relates to this combination with stock valve sizes / capacity / compression ratio... you couldn't make the broad assumption that the tipping point will be the same for any other combination of head flow / compression ratio / exhaust when using a single carb manifold and plenum.

SteveC
 
Yup... I wasn't trying for max power... The head is an unmodified 1300... Just freshened up... This was just a test build because I had never put one of these together and I didn't think it was smart to have my first one be a 10,000 rpm stroker motor 🤔
 
Not a stock crank... It's a ZRP billet crank. 79mm stroke. Yes, technically it's a 1.9 liter, not 2... I had to get a 1600 block from eastern Europe because the oil galleries interfere in the 1500, they were relocated in the 1600 for more clearance.
It's actually 1878.5cc of displacement at 87mm bore size, 116 cubic inches give or take
Yup... I wasn't trying for max power... The head is an unmodified 1300... Just freshened up... This was just a test build because I had never put one of these together and I didn't think it was smart to have my first one be a 10,000 rpm stroker motor 🤔
getting a 79mm stroke engine to turn 10,000rpm might be a bit of an ask.

116 CID and 1.25lb/ft per cubic inch is 145lb/ft of torque, that would be possible.

SteveC
 
It's actually 1878.5cc of displacement at 87mm bore size, 116 cubic inches give or take

getting a 79mm stroke engine to turn 10,000rpm might be a bit of an ask.

116 CID and 1.25lb/ft per cubic inch is 145lb/ft of torque, that would be possible.

SteveC
Titanium valves, retainers, wrist pins, forged rods, The Crank is forged 4340, fully counter balanced Knife edged profiled counterweights to reduce weight and increase crankshaft aerodynamics.
Counterweight bridge to reduce weight and rotating mass while maintaining rigidity in center high stress areas.
Straight oil holes for better oiling of the rod journals, Tapered rod journals for weight reduction. If not 10,000, I think it will get close..
 
That Definitely sounds like a good deal
There are no manifolds that fit these i guess?
Couple ways you could approach - you could use a single carb into an early large bore stock Fiat manifold with an adapter (these are easy to get). You could also use an aftermarket dual carb manifold, also easy to get. I can check and make sure the DCNVH carbs fit on a downdraft DCNF manifold for you. Give me one day to do that please.
 
Couple ways you could approach - you could use a single carb into an early large bore stock Fiat manifold with an adapter (these are easy to get). You could also use an aftermarket dual carb manifold, also easy to get. I can check and make sure the DCNVH carbs fit on a downdraft DCNF manifold for you. Give me one day to do that please.
Thanks would you have a link to one of those dual carb manifolds? As it is pretty hard to findt aftermarket stuff from in the netherlands as Google etc really filters those things out 😔
 
That would do the job.

Having Abarth cast into it for sure will add 10hp at the wheels :rolleyes:

DCNF/ DCNVA / DCNVH / DCA all share the same base pattern.

Not wanting to spoil Jim's sale of a pair of carbs, but I'll just say you may find it difficult to pair those two together with a balance linkage and tune them as dual carbs, they would work much better individually.

There's another guy in Croatia that also replicates various manifolds


or what may suit you better, a single DCNF pattern carb


SteveC
 
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