Have you ever wanted a 16V head on your X engine?

Glad to see you are still with us.

Do your still have details about how you put that particular car together? I remember parts of your build but it was before I got used to information disappearing from the net and started saving the interesting bits...

All the best and thank you.
Well, this is from 12-15 years ago and from dodgy memory ...

The block was very similar to an X1/9's, so I think the lower engine mount didn't need much, if any modifications. I think the transaxle, clutch and linkage were pretty much stock. The engine's nose mount (right side) was fabbed from welding metal pieces together (and using the rubber innards) The dog bone mount was a bit different, offset. It had an aftermarket computer (Electromotive Tec II or something like that?). Aftermarket air cleaner, probably some coolant routing changes. I think I had to spend a bit of time figuring out the various sensors. Can't think of anything else at the moment. To be honest, it wasn't too difficult. Well, it kinda was since I'm not an expert fabricator, but it was probably on the easier end of the scale, especially if you used something like a MegaSquirt computer.

IIRC, the engine was common is some European countries - a Brava or Bravo, or maybe an ugly multiplex van? My particular engine was a prototype being developed in the USA, but the project apparently died, or Fiat left. Something like that.

My buddy Sam Rolfe just bought a white X1/9 race car. Seeing pictures of it brought back fond memories. I was located near Kim Baker's race shop when I first started racing so he got me hooked on X1/9's. I took my first driver's school in his SSC Bertone X1/9. Later he worked with Chevrolet, racing and developing Corvettes, including the King of the Hill ZR-1. I've got one of those now (thanks a lot, Kim).
 
I saw the tail end of the Vette in your pic, nice very fast cars...

Thank you for sharing your recollection of the install from days of yore. I remember a few examples of Mr Baker's X work at some auto crosses, seeing one out drag a GTI on a mirrored course was certainly interesting given that it was "stock" :) They did nice work there and have continued to do so.

My recollection of that Fiat motor was it was one of the development preproduction examples as GM and Fiat were developing the "torque" engine family in the Detroit area, this was back around when Fiat got GM to buy themselves out of having to buy the entirety of Fiat which ended the codevelopment program and the offices in the Detroit area.

Was yours one of the ones offered on EBay? I was one of the people who bid on one but didn't commit enough unfortunately. Aaahh regrets.

Thanks!
 
Did I understood correctly about 1.9 DOHC? :
182A4000 engine + 182B6000 crankshaft= 1.9 DOHC (same as third one below)?

is there any fitting/space issues in x19 engine bay?

P.S.Just am collecting ideas for future modifications.

And in link below, what type of engine is that?
https://www.ss.com/msg/lv/transport/cars/fiat/croma/kkgnk.html

Untitled.jpg
 
Did I understood correctly about 1.9 DOHC? :
182A4000 engine + 182B6000 crankshaft= 1.9 DOHC (same as third one below)?

is there any fitting/space issues in x19 engine bay?

P.S.Just am collecting ideas for future modifications.

And in link below, what type of engine is that?
https://www.ss.com/msg/lv/transport/cars/fiat/croma/kkgnk.html

View attachment 8788

I believe it is a reverse flow Lampredi twin cam, similar but not the same as the ones in a 124. The intake and exhaust are switched and there are significant changes to the cooling system. Not a good fit for the X1/9.
 
I haven't actually tried it yet, but given the 182 engine is based on the 128/146 sohc family, one should be able to do the same "1.9 stroker" trick, which is what the Brazilians seem to have done. The X1/9 and similar family (e.g. Uno) gearbox bolts right on to these engines, making them a fairly easy fit in the X1/9.

As Karl says, the engine in your link is a "reverse port" Lampredi 8V TC. It is a different engine family to the Lampredi 128 sohc and is generally bigger and heavier than the sohc and takes a bigger gearbox (developed from the joint Fiat-Citroen gearbox used in the Beta). It can be squeezed in but it needs a fair bit of surgery on the body.
 
"1.9 stroker" trick, which is what the Brazilians seem to have done
Awhile back I was talking to a rep from a Brazilian performance parts company, mostly about items for a early water-cooled VW project I've been doing. But when I mentioned the X1/9, he lit up...excited about the 1.9 conversion they do in Brazil. Unfortunately I wasn't planning such a build so I really did not get any details, but it was about a crank from this, and pistons from that, etc, etc. As Rachael says, it seems to be a favorite thing to build there. But I'd guess it isn't as simple as just dropping in a different crank or whatever. I might still have his business card if anyone is really interested in contacting him for more info.
 
Ok well the 182 does fit in a x19 it bolts up to the x19 gearbox and the lower transmission mount still works fine,a custom front mount has to be frabricated but some of the bolt holes are in the block for the original snail mount
I'm currently working on the 80mm bore version and removing the 78.5mm crank so I can replace it with the 55mm crank
Custom pistons and rods will be needed but this gives me 1100cc motor that I can turbo and stay under 2litre class
So I really don't see why you couldn't use the 86.5mm bore and replace the crank with the 78.5mm and you have 16v 1.9 which really bolts in
John
 
Ok well the 182 does fit in a x19 it bolts up to the x19 gearbox and the lower transmission mount still works fine,a custom front mount has to be frabricated but some of the bolt holes are in the block for the original snail mount
I'm currently working on the 80mm bore version and removing the 78.5mm crank so I can replace it with the 55mm crank
Custom pistons and rods will be needed but this gives me 1100cc motor that I can turbo and stay under 2litre class
So I really don't see why you couldn't use the 86.5mm bore and replace the crank with the 78.5mm and you have 16v 1.9 which really bolts in
John
16v 1.9 turbo is in mind
 
Awhile back I was talking to a rep from a Brazilian performance parts company, mostly about items for a early water-cooled VW project I've been doing. But when I mentioned the X1/9, he lit up...excited about the 1.9 conversion they do in Brazil. Unfortunately I wasn't planning such a build so I really did not get any details, but it was about a crank from this, and pistons from that, etc, etc. As Rachael says, it seems to be a favorite thing to build there. But I'd guess it isn't as simple as just dropping in a different crank or whatever. I might still have his business card if anyone is really interested in contacting him for more info.
Yup, would be great to hear another opinion..
 
That reverse flow for me is biggest minus, otherwise it sounds street legal if can use original mounts and nonwelded shafts
 
How much power are you making ?
Standard brava16v head

1.6 8v turbo is still in process, because of $$$, so cannot speak about any power numbers, just believe that it could be more with DOHC. And could build another engine and still keep x19 roadworthy, after that just swap engines
 
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I have built an 8V 1.9 Liter.
I wouldn't want a 16V because the head is huge compared to 8V, and I couldn't use my existing header and twin DCNF setup.
But for a Turbo, that might be a good solution.

As a recap, for the 8V 1.9:
- Tipo block (1.6 8V), pretty much the same as a late X1/9 block, but the oil gallery is placed higher in the block.
- The crank with 78.4mm lift mentioned above.
- Aftermarket rods (std X1/9 length).
- Super short pistons. IAPEL in Argentinia makes them for this swap specifically, Sime posted he had a cheaper option based on production pistons for a different car.
- X1/9 head
 
There is one massive advantage of the Torque16v over the "traditional" Lampredi TC and its something that is seldom discussed - I suspect because not many people have worked it out - and those that do don't want everyone to know. The Torque16v is actually quite a bit LIGHTER than the Lampredi - and on top of that using the Torque16v means you can use a X19/128 gearbox rather than the Lancia Beta/Croma one. The net result is a touch over 40kg saved. And in racing terms that's massive - especially as the X1/9 is rear heavy and adding weight back there is a hard thing to redress without ballasting the front. No doubt this was also a factor in the 90's FWD applications for this motor. Brava/Bravo/Multipla etc.

There are negatives though. The aforementioned hydraulic followers is probably the biggest. Conversion to solid lifters is a big job because the camboxes are 1 piece and there is no way to check tappet to cam clearance without a lot of modifications. The standard oil pump in a 1581 16v was from the 1581 Tipo 8v - and it isn't upto the job of feeding the same engine PLUS 4 piston squirters and 16 leaky lifters. This is why most of the 1581 16v road cars you hear sound rattly. We basically had no choice but to fabricate a new oil pump. The other thing is poor head design. Not that its actually that bad - just that it is much more suited to a "shopping trolley" small family hatchback than a racecar. The intake valves and ports are the same size on both sides of the engine. In fact you often see these engines running "reverse port" to make packaging easier. Basically if you can sort out the cams and bolt the exhaust manifold to the intake side of the head and vice versa you're in business. My head guy did SIGNIFICANT work on the intake side of the head to make some decent flow figures.

There are a few weak points too - befitting this engine's "economy car" status. The main one is the threaded holes in the head for the camboxes. They seem to hold for 2 tightenings and then strip the threads out. Anyone working on these engines should helicoil (thread insert) those holes at first opportunity.
Is it for real to change intake/exhaust sides? Does it internally needs just camshafts to be changed?
 
Thanks!
Blog is interesting for sure.
I don't know why but always thought those 182 16V engines were with exhaust ports to the front, seems that wasn't looking at photos carefully enough.
These are very good news. Those engines here are common and doesn't cost much.
 
fiat.jpg
delta.jpg


First one is 182 16v from Brava
Second is Delta 1996 1.6 vvt 129hp
From top they look same for me, could it be same block= that fits X19's gearbox?
 
I like that they are twin-cam, cross-flow, and with the intake throttle body facing toward the same side of the engine as the exhaust. Makes for a nice turbo package arrangement. ;)
 
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