I think I bought a lemon.....

A. Looks like your engine has five head bolts and five head studs, not all head studs. That's good, but be prepared to struggle to get the head free of the studs. There is a purpose built tool available.

One field expedient method for removing the head with stuck studs is called the "rope trick"...you feed rope into each combustion chamber thru the spark plug hole and then gently turn the engine over by hand. The pistons push the rope up which gently pushes the head up and breaks it loose.

B. Looks like all valves except for one are lined up at equal height, and that odd man out valve stands well proud of the others. That's the one with the dropped head more than likely.

If you're very lucky and the valve debris did not damage the cylinder wall or beat up the combustion chamber too badly, you might be able to get away with buying one or two valves and one piston with rings. With some patience and guidance you can replace the piston yourself, saving money. You'll want to take the head to an automotive machine shop to be evaluated. If you are on a tight budget, they can just replace what's broken; if you have about $250-350 to work with, they should be able to hot tank it, check for cracks and straightness, replace a valve or two, resurface the head (taking off as little material as possible), and then do a valve job and return the assembled head to you.
 
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Ah crap...

Well, looks like the composite knowledge here hit it on the head.
There is a pin in the cam that keeps the pulley from turning without the cam.. and that sheared so the pulley was turning, but the cam was not. The pistons were still in motion, but the valves were not.
From the pics of the valve springs I would say at the least #1 exhaust is broken. The bad spark plug was in #2 so there is damage there too.

You are looking at a complete rebuild of the engine. If the pistons are OK, (hoping) it should not be too painful. Head might be OK, might be trashed, it all depends on how much the valve parts thrashed around in the cylinder.

Here are the cost on the 1300 I built:
Machine work on the block (degrease, bore cylinders, polish cranl journals) $150
Head: (degrease) 3 angle valve job, install new valve seals, skim surface) $140
I had to get new pistons that added $450
Add in gaskets and seals, bearings etc, I was at $950 for parts.

You will need to buy some valves at a minimum, check the venders for prices. You might have a bit of sticker shock looking at MidWest's offerings, keep in mind those heads include Cam tower and cam, and are all set to bolt on. I am sure members here can provide many of your needed bits for far less than retail costs. I have a pretty good stash of parts not sure how mush 1300 at this point since I just built a motor. I think I have a used 1300 head it would need a trip to a machine shop but I'd make ya a good deal on it. I'm not sure where you are, I am in Oregon so shipping would be something to consider as well.
 
costs....

Thanks for that info, it really helps. Once we have a list of parts that we need, we'll be sure to post here and see what everyone suggests. I don't know of anyone around here that can do head work, but I'm sure there must be a few places around. London is about 400,000 people with almost 1,000,000 in the greater area, lots of muscle car places around, someone will be able to clean up the head I'm sure. Thanks again....
 
Andy said:
You are looking at a complete rebuild of the engine. If the pistons are OK, (hoping) it should not be too painful. Head might be OK, might be trashed, it all depends on how much the valve parts thrashed around in the cylinder.
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That should read: "You are looking at a possible need of a complete rebuild of the engine". Until he pulls the head & can assess any piston/cylinder damage, there's no need to scare the guy to death! :laugh:
 
Good Point Jeff, my point was that sadly this will not be a simply pull the head remove the loose bits and put it back together.

My intent was not to invoke dread, but to be realistic in what to expect. I always attempt to hope for the best, but expect the worse.
This typically reduces bad surprises...
 
That's a very nice upgrade... from my personal expierience the 35/75 is a better road cam than the 40/80 (more for track use), but I am sure others will have differing opinions...

When you get the head off, get some good pictures of the combustion chambers, and the piston tops. Also rotate the engine to have the piston at the bottom of the cylinder so we can see the bores...
 
Willy,

Much more knowledgeable folks have offered assistance re: your problem. I am the perennial "all thumbs award" winner for the SoCal X 1/9 owners group, so I don't have the first friggin' idea where you should start.

I would seriously consider Papa Tony's suggestion and contact Bob Brown about the engine he is willing to give to an Xweb member. Bob can give you a better idea of the condition and it just might be the drop in replacement you need and good for many miles. Contrary to popular opinion, Tony and Bob are first class people and straight-shooters.:guns: As Tony suggested, it might be worth a trip to New Hampshire. It just might avoid a lot of wasted time and frustration.

Just my 2:2c: worth.

Hope you get this sorted out soon.

Mike
 
Who "Re=Built this Fiat engine?

If this problem has been found, what else is seriously wrong in this engine?

That is the wrong thread pitch bolt. Based in the image, this bolt is not only no-stock Fiat, it is a M10x1.5 thread bolt which will never seat properly into the threads in the end of the cam. What does the threads on the bolt look like when this bolt has been removed from the cam?

The proper bolt diameter and pitch is M10x1.25 and it is a grade 10.9 or better.

If this is not the problem, the bolt is too long causing the bolt to bottom out and never properly clamping the cam pulley on to the cam.

If the pin is broken off as it has in this image, that cam will be difficult to save. Drilling out that pin is not easy as it is hardened steel pin which makes drilling out difficult with anything less than a solid carbide drill (Spade drill). Even so, the cam is soft which means once it is drilled, the hole will never be the same size or straight again.

Note that hole must be 'straight', round and tolerances to less than a couple thousands of an inch. A sloppy fit will result in another cam drive failure.

It would be better and easier to simply replace this cam with a new pin.

There appears to be a bent valve too.

Remove the cylinder head and go from there.


Bernice


WildWilly said:
Can that pin be drilled and replaced or am I looking at a new camshaft?? I'll go take a pic of the end of my camshaft.

http://www.diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/cam_1.jpg

I'm thinking that a pin should be where that whole is.
Click to expand...
 
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Who "Re=Built this Fiat engine?

I was told a retired Porsche mechanic, that's the reason I bought this car thinking the engine would be perfect and I could spend my money on other things. Major bummer....
 
Head Spinning?

There are a lot of good suggestions being thrown at you. Bernice has a good point in just how much you can trust that motor. Rebuilding your motor will probably have you touch all the areas you need to to make it reliable.

May I suggest:
1. Pull the head. This will allow you to assess the extent of the damage and put you at a crossroads. I just replaced my head gasket, and in the process of putting it back together, repaired or replaced almost everything that came off: water pump, alternator, belt bearing...etc.
2. Anticipate cost. With the head off, you can weigh the cost of repair with the cost of replacement. Renting a truck to pick up Bob Brown's motor (if it's still available) may be as much as having a shop recondition your head. Mine cost $300.
3. Find the time. I do not know how much garage space you have, but going either way will consume many week ends and favors from friends. There will be times when you absolutly need a second pair of hands.
4. Each step of the way will find yourself saying "That wasn't as bad as I thought it would be".

Keep us posted, especially when you get the head off. We will give sage advice when you reach that crossroads. It will be worth it!!
 
WildWilly said:
It gets about ½ a turn and brings up. I'm convinced its the wrong thread for the cam and was never really in there properly. Therefore at some point it became loose enough for something to happen.
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Either that or the threads were well and thoroughly horked up when stuff was pounding back and forth.
Also, it appears that there is a dimple in the cam pulley itself and perhaps a pin should be protruding from the camshaft to hit this dimple to line things up and make sure they stay that way.
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Look carefully at that "dimple". The cam pulley has a through-hole which accepts a metal dowel, so if you're seeing a dimple, chances are the dowel is sheared off, jammed solidly into the hole, and the bottom of the "dimple" is actually the end of the broken-off dowel.
I took a few pictures. One of these things is not like the others......
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Yep, bent/broken valves. The tops should all stand the same height. Off with that head!.

So tomorrow night it will be drain the oil and coolant so I can take the head off.
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Just need to drain coolant, and then only to below the level of the top of the block. There's a drain cock on the side of the block below the exhaust manifold.

What needs to come off before I can take the head off? I'm thinking the whole water pump assembly at the flywheel end, but I really don't know what else to take off. Working on the timing belt end is pretty tight, so its not exactly easy to see what is over there. Any and all advice appreciated. At least I'm learning a few things.
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Now that you have the cam tower out, there's not much left. Disconnect the hoses, disconnect the exhaust at the downpipe, disconnect the wires to the various sensors on the head. The water pump stays on. The only slightly tricky bit is that the metal plate that mounts the belt cover is bolted to both the head and the block, so you have to undo the bolts.

Can that pin be drilled and replaced or am I looking at a new camshaft?? I'll go take a pic of the end of my camshaft.
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Depends on how bad the damage is, but if the hole is still round and properly dimensioned, a new pin will press fit in. If you can find a local machine shop, get the opinion of the oldest grayest-haired guy there.

You'll also have to verify the threads in the bolt hole in the cam shaft.
 
Which means much of little. The wrencher might be an expert at Porsche's but know little if anything about this specific Fiat engine or x1/9's overall.

Sadly, the whole engine might need to come apart just to know precisely what has been done to it. Without the facts, all is questionable given what has happened to the cam drive and related.

Beyond the engine, what lease was worked on?

:cry:

Bernice




WildWilly said:
I was told a retired Porsche mechanic, that's the reason I bought this car thinking the engine would be perfect and I could spend my money on other things. Major bummer....
Click to expand...
 
thanks Joe...

I made what I think was good progress last night and hoping tonight to get the head off. Once I get that done and post some pictures, we'll try and decide which way to go. So far, it hasn't been as bad as I thought, just taking my time and looking at everything before I start taking things apart. I'm really hoping the block and pistons are OK, the rings were replaced about 2 years ago, so if all that is still ok, I should be in good shape. Looking to order the entire head, cam tower and cam cover from MWB. All new valves and springs, etc. Just bolt it on. Its a bit of money, but everything is done and done correctly with performance parts. That will save me a lot of time. I'm also wanting to get back on the road as quickly as possible. More updates tonight....
 
other stuff

the front struts/springs were replaced (KYB and lowering springs), the interior was done including a new dash, a decent stereo with Alpine amp was installed, the crankshaft was replaced and all the bearings on the bottom, he painted the car (although not very well), all rubber on the roof and doors was replaced, but there are still gaps and lots of wind noise with the roof on. New exhaust (MaganFlow Muffler) with custom pipe bending to make it all fit, there were some structural issues that were dealt with by a welder, so she is solid underneath, the drivers floorpan was replaced, all 4 rotors were replaced, new pads, one calliper rebuild, stainless steel brakes lines, all new rad hoses, new tie-rod ends, all pollution controls removed and a 28/36 weber installed, K&N filter, new rings, honed the cylinder walls, the head was also done. The guy spent over 12K on the car, so I was thinking all would be well. Some days you're the windshield, some days you're bug.
 
Take it from this old "retired" guy...

They can't be trusted!

HA!

Even the BEST make mistakes... and if they aren't, they ain't doin' nuthun'!
 
WildWilly said:
Looking to order the entire head, cam tower and cam cover from MWB.
Click to expand...

I'd be inclined to hold off on that order until you've had a chance to evaluate for bottom-end damage... The odds are you'll be OK, but it would be no fun to have an expensive new head and discover you're still booked for bottom-end work.
 
Given this photo you can tell its the wrong bolt right down the the thread size and pitch!!!

That's REAL experience talkin' here! WOW~!

Considering everything... especially when a broken BELT is usually the cause of such a disaster... this loose bolt and sheared pin would be the next best bet.

Good eye, Bernice!

cam_1.jpg
 
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