Inconsistent No Crank Condition

Conda

Conda

Daily Driver
Hey guys,

We made it 3650 miles and took 2nd place in the Four Bangors rally, but the car is a bit worse for the wear. Going through fixing things on it now.

Basically on the third day of the rally our starter started acting up even more than before.

We used to have a very rare issue where when the key was turned you would just get nothing but a clunk, I found it was reproducible if the engine stopped at TDC. I assumed it was just a weak starter as the lights and all would dim like it was taking a lot of current.

Anyway replaced the starter with a new reduction model and didn't have issues again until 1600 miles into the rally, when the car was hot it was just a 50/50 gamble if the starter would turn at all. We had to roll start it a lot the last couple days, which it was very eager to start that way and run. At least most people find it fun/novel to push start a car :D (thanks random pedestrians!)

I was told I needed to fix the issue this weekend when my girlfriend had to help me push start it to get home from church. So is this something you guys have seen before? It seems to be pulling current, but just not enough to turn the motor. It sounds like a clunk from the back when the key is turned.

Thanks all.
 
Ground strap. Connects transmission to the chassis. Remove it, sand the chassis mounting point back to bare metal, sand the ground strap (or replace it), and remove the rust from the strap to chassis mounting bolt. Then, reattach everthing and use a liberal amount of dielectric grease. Do the same for the battery to chassis ground cable in the frunk.

Maybe this will help?
 
Conda,

Starting issues are not uncommon. As Mechanogeek said, check all your grounds and starter connections. There is a starter relay kit available, but I will ahve to search for it. I cant remember who sold it, but it was a VW guy that agreed to make a kit for the X. Gregory Smith knew him from his VW Vanagon hobby.

I need to check these items as well. My 85 has developed a starting issue. Sometimes it acts like the battery is dead and I don't even get a clink. Sometimes I get a little clunk. On a whim, I left the car in first and released the parking brake. I gently rolled the car back and forth a couple times against the gear. The engine spins right up after this. I have had to do this 3 or 4 times lately, so it is time to get under there for a cleaning and tightening of connections. At least I hope that is all that is the issue. :)
 
I found the old Vanagon hard start relay thread. Here it is. For a brief time the seller had created a slightly modified version for the X, but that link has gone dead. The Vanagon version is still available and I believe Gregory's instructions on fitting it to the X are in that thread somewhere. Or you could make your own.

I added the hard start relay thread to the BOX under electrical mods so I can find it easier next time. :)
 
JimD said:
Conda,

Starting issues are not uncommon. As Mechanogeek said, check all your grounds and starter connections. There is a starter relay kit available, but I will ahve to search for it. I cant remember who sold it, but it was a VW guy that agreed to make a kit for the X. Gregory Smith knew him from his VW Vanagon hobby.

I need to check these items as well. My 85 has developed a starting issue. Sometimes it acts like the battery is dead and I don't even get a clink. Sometimes I get a little clunk. On a whim, I left the car in first and released the parking brake. I gently rolled the car back and forth a couple times against the gear. The engine spins right up after this. I have had to do this 3 or 4 times lately, so it is time to get under there for a cleaning and tightening of connections. At least I hope that is all that is the issue. :)
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The rolling it and letting the clutch up in gear was also something I have done to rectify this in the past, though that seems to be working less and less recently.

I was thinking about some of the relay mods i've seen on here and might look into that after checking the groundings.

The starter motor never really sounds weak, its either 100% and starts immediately or doesn't spin the motor at all.
 
AH! Funny this thread came up.

I was having the same issue recently. I have a reduction gear starter, and this summer I also had a "clunk" no crank condition when the engine was hot (and more rarely, when cold). It got to the point where it was highly repeatable, meaning the car is hot - it's not going to crank.

Because I'm lazy, I tried this first before pulling the starter (my ground wire is good). I pulled out the FASTON connector and squeezed it a bit more, re-inserted it and well - I haven't had an issue since!

What I didn't know was that a starter motor solenoid has two windings, one for pull in and one for hold (I haven't really investigated how that works, but sure enough - if there isn't enough current flowing, you'll hear the hold coil "clunk" but not the pull in winding which should have a very noticeable clunk).

The ignition switch can also be a culprit, but in my case the ignition switch is fairly new.

So anyway, my issue was just simply that the FASTON wasn't making the best contact on the spade connector of the solenoid. Solved that and she cranks happily along. :)

I have a boring video that I made a long time ago with a starter motor comparison (pardon the blue smoke, valve seals are shot!):

 
I forgot to include a picture with this thread! Here's the best pic that we took on the rally, off of Mt. Washington. Posted it before so nothing new.
rO846VS.jpg
 
I was experiencing the same thing on my car. I don’t know about fiats but on V8s, advanced timing can result in a motor not want to turn over when hot. You can test it by unplugging the coil and seeing if it will turn over.

Smaller 4 cylinders like these may not have that issue.

I think my issue might have been a combination. My starter is weak and my ignition timing was off.
 
myronx19 said:
Because I'm lazy, I tried this first before pulling the starter (my ground wire is good). I pulled out the FASTON connector and squeezed it a bit more, re-inserted it and well - I haven't had an issue since!
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Hi Myron,

I finally got a chance to work on the 85X today. I tested the voltage at the batt before starting and it showed 12.4V or so. Had trouble starting it, but futzed with it till it cranked and fired. I see 13.6V at the batt while running and 13.8V at the alt output lug while running. I think my charging system is OK. So, after I let the car cool down, I got the rear up on ramps and got underneath. All the wiring looks good and tight, but he FASTON came off really easily. The male tab off the starter was clean and grease free. I grabbed the connector with my pliers and gave it a squeeze. Maybe too much squeeze as it took a few attempts to get it back on, but at least I know that sucker is on there good. Naturally the car fired right up afterwards. The test comes now that I walked away from it and it can start plotting against me again.

Thanks for the idea, we shall see how it works out.
 
Conda said:
my girlfriend had to help me push start it to get home from church
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That's just God's way of saying Fiats are the devil's work. :D

Lots of great suggestions given:

I agree about that little push-on ("faston") connector being a weak point. I'd be tempted to drill a small hole through the male spade tab (on the starter), change the connector on the wire to a ring, and use a small screw and nut to secure the two together. Push-on (faston) connectors in general tend to be a source of issues in my opinion. I like to eliminate as many as possible and replace them with more positive connection types.

It is always a good idea to clean all the grounds and other contacts.

Adding relays to the electrical system will offer many benefits. Especially ones to decrease the load on the key switch [check the switch and the multi connector just before it for signs of overheating]. Whether or not the starter solenoid will benefit from one might depend on the condition of the other related components, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

I also like the upgrade of replacing the power cables (battery to starter, alternator to starter, battery to ground, and battery to fuse box) with a heavier gauge and new terminals/clamps. The stock cables were a bit undersized and all cables will increase in resistance with age.

Naturally test your alternator output, battery condition, and starter draw like Jim did.

A combination of all these things should make your X more rally proof.


Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Yes, that female spade connector has a shockingly lame grip on its male counterpart. [HEY!!! Hold the prurient thoughts, this is a family-friendly site!!
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How juvenile...I love it! :D
 
Cleaned up the ground strap, and cleaned up starter contacts and pinched the spade connector. No more no-crank condition for a week!

Bad news is car started pulling to the right when braking. Further analysis shows that the left brake is weak, appears to not be getting much fluid. Line is seized to the hose and even with oil and heat and then more oil over a few days it is not breaking loose, basically ruined the fitting at this point. I figure at this point im going to have to cut and reflare the hard lines, there is plenty of material there to work with thankfully.

I got new hoses for the front (I think that's the point of failure here) and now I've also ordered the bubble flare stuff along with the hard line fittings. Never done brake line flaring but this car has been a ton of great (and not great) firsts for me!
 
In the words of the great philosopher Roseanne Rosannadanna: Its always something. If its not one thing its another.

Good luck with the dirty work.
 
kmead said:
Roseanne Rosannadanna
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In the newsroom.....

Roseanne: "What's all this talk about your ex wife? Who cares wha...."
Interruption: "Roseanne, he said 'X1/9', not 'ex of mine' ".
Roseanne: "Never mind".

[obscure reference that only old farts will know]
 
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Hey guys, i'm still waiting on getting the brake parts to address those problems so I moved onto the next little issue: the turn signal switch.

My turn signals work, but its like the right turn signal wont work if its locked in the position it wants to be in to turn right, it needs to be held just before what feels like the detent point where it will stay on.

Basically left is fine but right i have to hold the stalk at a certain position to get the signal to flash. Has anyone fixed something like this with the turn signals before? I'm wondering if its servicable or if its something I'm just going to need a new switch assembly for the steering column.
 
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