interesting x-1/9 engine swap engine
- Thread starter Kevin B (Asheville NC)
- Start date
kmead
Old enough to know better
I have never like the VR6 as it is rather hefty and is generally not particularly tunable.
For me it would a lighter alloy four pot. I always wondered about the Suzuki 13B twin cam 1300, its light, small and can be coaxed into a nifty peaky 130ish hp. It would keep the Fiat character.
I do have my old B3 Passat with a 2.0 twin cam moldering in the door yard which stock starts with 134 hp. I have never measured it for fit though I should before sending the whole thing to the junk yard. Great engine.
For me it would a lighter alloy four pot. I always wondered about the Suzuki 13B twin cam 1300, its light, small and can be coaxed into a nifty peaky 130ish hp. It would keep the Fiat character.
I do have my old B3 Passat with a 2.0 twin cam moldering in the door yard which stock starts with 134 hp. I have never measured it for fit though I should before sending the whole thing to the junk yard. Great engine.
bikesandcars
True Classic
absolutely, a OBDII VR6 is very tunable with a chip, and the A4 (4th gen) VR6's come with a variable intake manifold stock. The 24 valve version is quite a ripper (Found on GTI / GLX versions of golf/jetta)
The VR6 12 valve is a torque motor, not a hp motor. It makes peak torque from around 3000 rpm and keeps about the same HP to almost redline. You can cam it to move the power around, but with 12 valves it's almost better to have the torque. That old saying people buy HP and drive torque is true, you'd much rather have a vr6 than a 20-valve turbo in stock trim.
Comparing bike engines to car engines is apples and oranges.
I'd love to have a Hayabusa engine in a Fiat, but a Hayabusa engine with all ancillaries costs about $2,000 in good shape, then you have to figure out running gear. The chain route is out for a street car, so you're forced into a quaife unit ($3K +) or buying the special bottom-end from the supplier mentioned above (8K for the motor...ouch).
I think in the end you are still better served by utilizing a japanese or VW transaxle car, the VW variety seems to bolt up easiest (but I have no experience doing so).
Longitudinal
True Classic
Hi, I just signed on at Midwest and have been talking with Matt about VW swaps including the I4 ad VR with corresponding 02A and 02J transmissions. Can you tell I am a VW guy? I hope to begin designing a VW conversion soon. 8VT for me because I love the 8V. VR might be a tight fit in the X's tiny engine bay, but they are the dirtiest of dirt cheap for 175 factory HP.
kmead
Old enough to know better
It will be good to watch what you do, I have a VW 2.0 Twin Cam in my old '91 Passat that I have always thought would be a nice upgrade to the X, if a bit heavy. I know I would lose out on economy as well but that isn't much of an issue on a car I don't drive much. 134 HP some decent torque with a longer legged 5 speed would likely make for a much more relaxed car.
jnoiles
The Driver
This is the route we're taking in Project X. Mostly because a whole Punto GT can be had for about £500 so it makes sense. Pick up the whole car, break it for all the bits you need, weigh off the rest as scrap.
I have wondered about turbo and heat but I don't think its anything that can't be solved with some creative airflow mgmt and a lot of venting at the rear. I'm seeing inspiration in things like this at the moment:
And where the wall between engine bay and rear boot (trunk) perhaps mount a couple of high CFM fans in a frame to literally suck heat out the back and through the rear meshed like the picture above. A bit of heat shielding around the engine bay as well to stop it cooking me in the cabin.
Longitudinal
True Classic
Are you referring to the 308 injected engine? That would be Bosch K-Jetronic (K for Kontinuerlich, or continuous,) AKA CIS. It's a great system that is very adjustable and quite adaptive to performance applications. It is very likely that my VW powered X project (should I choose to accept it) would be CIS-fueled.
Matthew
True Classic
Maybe see if you can fit a PD TDI in there. That would be a sweet daily driver.
I'm glad there's someone out there that likes K-Jet:wacko:
Longitudinal
True Classic
K-Jet is awesome. Much like the X, it is misunderstood and much abused. Show me a factory-supplied injection system that can be adjusted to compensate for twice the stock horsepower--adjusted--not chipped, not modified, no big injectors, no reflash.
Diesel would absolutely be an option. I mentioned that to Matt and Chris. Want a bbr10? A high output diesel would be a super-cool way to go in an X, especially with a modified early model (DBC) TDI.
Diesel would absolutely be an option. I mentioned that to Matt and Chris. Want a bbr10? A high output diesel would be a super-cool way to go in an X, especially with a modified early model (DBC) TDI.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
The K-jetronic is really a mechanical injection system with a fuel metering pump.. Mis-understood due to it's mechanical nature and was introduced during the era when Bosch introduced a number of Electronic Injection systems.
The K was the odd one, but it was Bosch's attempt to make a performance injection system like the Kugelfischer mechanical system.
It was also known as CIS or Continuous Injection System.
Later Bosch introduced the KE which has electronics.
Owned a BWM z00z back in the day with Kugelfischer, once properly set up, it was very reliable and performed very well indeed.
Bernice
The K was the odd one, but it was Bosch's attempt to make a performance injection system like the Kugelfischer mechanical system.
It was also known as CIS or Continuous Injection System.
Later Bosch introduced the KE which has electronics.
Owned a BWM z00z back in the day with Kugelfischer, once properly set up, it was very reliable and performed very well indeed.
Bernice
mx5rush
True Classic
Since Fiat and Chrysler are all 'family' now days, why not drop in a honking SRT-4 engine along with it's posi equip'd transmission... the crazy kids that boost those things up for street racing are wrecking them all the time! Stock they are 240 or better in the HP department, and I know there are plenty on the street running around making 300-400 hp!
eee-Yikes!
eee-Yikes!
Longitudinal
True Classic
Strictly speaking, we can say that it is a hydraulic (or hydro-mechanical) fueling system. It is dead nuts reliable, period. I have seldom ever encountered a problem on a CIS car that was actually CIS's fault. It's an air leak, a vacuum leak, a bad sensor, etc.
I'll have to look back to see if I made a mistake, but I meant DBC TDI (drive by cable, as opposed to the more recent drive by wire) TDI engines. bbR10 was an allusion to "bb4re."
Longitudinal
True Classic
The fuel distributor is not a pump, just a metering device.
Odd only because Bosch had narrowed the scope of metering input devices to L (luft) and later LH (luft heiss, hot air.) There was D-Jetronic (druck, pressure--MAP instead of volume) as well.
KE was not the first to have electronics; there was K-Basic, which had no electronics at all, then K-Lambda, which added an ECU, an O2S, and a coolant temp sensor as inputs and a differential pressure regulator, called by many a "frequency valve" as the receiver of the ECU's correction signal. Then KE came along. The E is because this system had more electronic control than the previous systems. The DPR was still the ECU's only correction device, but its control over fuel metering was superior.
I am not being a nazi here, just a Bosch ebthusiast.
Matthew
True Classic
If do a TDI swap you really don't want to do that. I think they call them TDI-M (TDI Mechanical). I think they use the upper part of a old pre-TDI diesel injection pump and put it on a TDI IP. It's kind of back yard way of adapting a TDI engine for people who are scared of electronics. The wiring and engine control on a TDI is dead simple (even on the PDs) and considering the advantages there is no reason not to use it. The reason I suggested a PD is because the IP makes the older engines so wide I have my doubts they would fit in an X.
Longitudinal
True Classic
My understanding is that the TDI cluster is required to make the DBC engine run. Maybe this is wrong or maybe there is a way around it. If so, great.
In any case, what makes the VW engine option so appealing to me is that one kit allows so much flexibility--8, 16 and 20 valve gas engines with displacements from 1500 to 2000cc, diesel, turbo diesel and TDI. The V engine is extremely robust and tunable. Wild cams for 8V engines are all over the place. Factory internals can be combined to build practically bomb-proof turbo 8V engines. With a few adaptations and changes, you could even run Fiat factory L-Jet--if you wanted to do such a thing.
Stay tuned. Matt and I have been talking a lot of shop about various options for performance. Once we clear out the service backlog, it should be an interesting summer.
Matthew
True Classic
If you use a pre MY 2000 TDI there is no immobilizer so the cluster isn't needed. 2000- you either use the TDI cluster or have have the immoblizer deleted from the ECM. There are several chip tuners that can do that. The VW immobilizer systems have been pretty much throughly hacked and are easy to work with.