Intermittent starting problem with 1983 Bertone X1/9

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User1

RETIRED Admin, pm OFF
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Intermittent starting problem with 1983 Bertone X1/9<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 17 2000 at 2:11 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("Mike Engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>Mike Engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Dear X1/9 enthusiasts,

I am in need of help regarding the repair of my 1983 Bertone X1/9. Specifically, I think the car has a bad starter that needs replaced, but let me give you some info and see what you think. I bought the car in early Novemeber from a nice guy in Louisville and would like to restore it to its original glory. I have to admit to an italian car sickness, as I have owned a 1976 Fiat Spider in the past and currently own a 1988 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce. The Bertone X1/9 has only 30K miles on it (original miles) and most of its problems are minor cosmetic issues, with two exceptions. The first exception is an intermittent starting problem and the second is an inability to engage 5th gear. The first of these is more troubling because it is unpredictable and as such keeps me from driving the car more often. When I start the car, I turn the key to "mid-position" and wait for the fuel gauge to register on the dash, then turn the key the rest of the way. About 20% of the time, the engine turns over and the car starts right up. Once started, it runs beautifully. In fact, I drove the car from Louisville to Nashville (about 200 miles) on the day that I bought it. However, the other 80% of the time, the engine does not turn over and instead I only hear the "humming" sound of the fuel pump. The prior owner was aware of this problem and devised a couple of fixes. One of these was literally to bounce up and down while sitting in the driver's seat, after which he says the car generally would start. If that didn't work, he would roll the car backwards slowly with the clutch depressed, and then let out the clutch to engage the gears. He wasn't trying to jump start it, just move the gears a bit. He told me that these two fixes would work greater than 95% of the time. I however did not have as much luck, so rather than screw something up I consulted the folks at IAP. They thought this sounded like a starter problem, specifically a bad spot on the armature related to the car's prior history of being stored for several years. They recommended placing the car in fourth gear, pushing it forward a few feet and then trying to start it again. This works for me, but I may have to try several times before it does, which is a giant pain. I also noticed a strange coincidence. Normally when I put the key in "mid-position", it takes a few second for the fuel level sending unit to send its signal to my fuel gauge on the dash. If after failing to start the first time I try my "pushing trick" and then try to start the car again, successful starts are always preceded by this same short delay in the fuel gauge being activated. Failure to start is always preceded by the fuel gauge immediately indicating the fuel level (ie., no delay between turning the key to "mid position" and deflection of the fuel gauge on the dash). I don't know if this gives any useful info, but I thought that I would mention it since the starter is an electromechanical device. Interestingly, once that car has been started successfully, it generally starts reliably as long as it's warm (like restarting after a quick stop at the store). If it sits overnight, I am back to the baseline starting difficulty. I should now mention to you that I have no experience fixing cars, but no one in Nashville has been willing to work on this model so I need to learn. I am actually quite eager to do so. I have both an MD and PhD, and as such believe that there is hope for me to be trained (ha ha, how sad that I can describe in detail the chemistry and physics of an internal combustion engine, but have no practical skills to fix one!) So after all this, I have a few questions...

1. Does this sound like a starter problem to you?
2. How would rust on the armature-a "bad spot" (the explanation given to me) prevent the starter motor from turning the engine over? Is it just a friction issue?
3. If I need to replace the starter, how would I go about doing it. I bought a Clymer manual and also have a shop manual. Neither gives very detailed instruction; just loosen the 3 bolts that hold it in place, remove the old starter and attach the new one. As a novice, I need detailed instructions and have not been able to find them on the web. Basic info like how do I get to the starter to replace it. I can see it, but can't imagine how I would get to it to remove it.
4. If not the starter, what else could it be?
5. Whom would you recommend as a parts supplier? The IAP people have been very nice, but they are very expensive. I have also heard good things about Bayless and Vicks.
6. Do you know of any sites that list reputable Fiat service places throughout the country?
7. Can you recommend a mechanism by which I might get some practical experience doing auto repair work?

I would really appreciate any help you could give me. I admit feeling a bit paralyzed by fear of screwing something up. If I had someone to walk me through the process, I feel confident that I can do this type of work and hopefully will be able rejuvinate this awesome car to its former glory.

Thanks to all, and best wishes for happy holidays to come.

Mike 8^)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "f";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Steven Lawson"); // --> </SCRIPT>Steven Lawson <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->check...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 17 2000, 4:33 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Look under the stearing column, there should be a connector near where the plastic ends with brown, red, black, and blue wires. You might need to remove the plastic cover. See if this connector has a section that is starting to turn brown from heat. This connector is from the keyswitch. The connector is carrying alot of current, and once the conection starts to go from corrosion it rapidly deteriorates.
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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->And the ground strap!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 17 2000, 8:16 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi there.. Steven is right about the ignition switch connector plug. I'd check it first. Then on the drivers side rear of the transaxle is a ground strap to the body. Make sure it's clean and tight (take it off to check). Also the small red wire at the top of the starter solenoid could be loose or corroded. It's not easy to see, but you might be able to check it from the top. You may have to remove the hose from the air flow meter to the intake manifold to reach it.
If you have some basic test equipment, and it still is acting up, you can check to be sure that the red wire to the solenoid delivers nearly battery voltage when your assitant turns the key to the crank position. Note that if the car starts, this proves nothing!! If the car won't crank, and you have 11 volts or so at the solenoid with the wire connected(and a good ground),then you are looking at a starter. If you have very low or no voltage at the solenoid, then you have an ignition switch or wiring problem. Hope this helps,
Steve<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Tim[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Check the starter brushes<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 1:44 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->It may also be the starter motor brushes, they may be worn out or slightly rusted in place, this can give intermittent starting and flat battery type symptoms, remove the starter from the car (jack up and remove the three bolts from underneath) and remove the back plate from the motor, you will then see the four brushes, check for wear and free play, if they're tight or rusted in place then remove each one and clean, apply a little penetrating oil and test, could save the cost of a new motor
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 10:34 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Tim,

Thanks very much for your comments about my starting problem. Your thoughts are appreciated. I think I will check my electrical connections first and hopefully avoid messing around with the starter motor. If it comes to that though, you may see more of my dumb questions on this forum.

Best wishes for the upcoming holidays,

Mike
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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->ground strap check<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 10:21 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hey Steve,

Thanks so much for the response to my post. Several people have suggested that I check the integrity of my ground strap connection, making sure that the connection is "clean" and "tight". The tight part I understand (assuming you mean make sure that it is bolted tightly at both ends-transmission and body). I have a question about the clean aspect. Just what does one mean by clean? I took a look at my ground strap from underneath the car and it just looked like a flat, braided, gray wire. Granted, I didn't get a complete look at it because I wasn't able to remove the protective shrouds (don't have the equipment yet), but what I saw looked reasonably intact. If I were to just assume that it was dirty and clean it, would that mean removing it and just wiping it off or something more involved?

With respect to the hot (red) wire to the starter solenoid, how would corrosion manifest itself? If it were corroded, I assume that I could just cut back the wire to a good spot and "re-crimp" the spade connector. Is that correct?

With respect to your other comments regarding diagnostics, all that seems logical. I hope that means I am getting the hang of this. Guess it's time to buy some tools/equipment and get started. I will of course keep you posted, and I would appreciate it if I could continue to bug you and other X-enthusiasts on this site with my stupid/infantile questions. Everyone has been very generous with their suggestions and I am most grateful.

Best wishes for the holidays,

Mike
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Doc[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->A couple of answers...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 6:44 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Re: vendors, the ones you list are all good. Bayless has the most in their catalog, but are VERY expensive. I've found IAP and Vicks to both be very good (Vicks seems to ship a bit faster, so I usually use them). Obert and Co. is another good one.

5th gear: can you shift into the "slot" for 5th gear, but there is no gear there? Or are you unable to shift into the spot? If it is the latter, it's likely that the shift linkage needs to be fiddled with.

Good luck!

Doc<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->5th gear shifting problem clarification<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 2:07 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->The problem with shifting into 5th gear is that I can shift the car into gear, but when I let out the clutch all that I hear is a grinding sound. The problem was demonstrated to me the day that I bought it, and I have only tried it once myself. Because of the potential for damage to the transmission, I just don't shift into 5th. I have heard from IAP that the 5th gear synchro on this car is known to fail. Since I don't really need 5th gear for in town driving, this is not a big problem to me right now. However, any info you can give me would be appreciated.

Thanks so much for your reply and best wishes for the holidays.

Mike
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Doc[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hmm...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 2:18 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Maybe One of the folks mroe knowledgeable in these trannies can help.

I've never heard of 5th gear being a problem before. Reverse and 3rd seem to be the common ones...

Doc<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "f";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Steven Lawson"); // --> </SCRIPT>Steven Lawson <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->grinding..<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 5:07 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Sounds like it's out of adjustment and not engaging fully. Then you are in neutral, is the stick partially forward? The lollipop under the car is slotted, so you should be able to readjust the throw to center it up.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("mike engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>mike engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks, Steve for both responses<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 10:39 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Steve,

Thanks for your thoughts regarding my X problems. I am learning alot just from reading the responses folks have posted. I don't really feel like the stick is leaning forward in neutral, but I will check.

Best wishes for the holiday season,

Mike
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Steve Hoelscher[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->The problem with 5th<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 7:56 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->The problem with your 5th gear is not the adjustment. The synchro is shot and the engagement teeth on 5th gear and the slider are both ruined. While not the most common problem with the 5 spd transmission, I have seen it from time to time.

You will need a new synchro and slider, and probably a new 5th for the lay shaft.

This can all be done without removing the transmission from the car as 5th is accessable by removing the end cap located just behind the left rear wheel. It will however require an impact wrench and a 30mm socket. The entire job would take me about an hour from drive in to drive out. Longer for someone who hasn't messed with a transmission before.

Did I note you are in Nashville, Tennessee? If so, I am in Huntsville, Alabama about 100 miles south of you. Oh, and I have all of the parts needed to make the repair.

Steve
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "T";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "C";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Tom C"); // --> </SCRIPT>Tom C <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Congrats!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 7:57 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Congratulations on purchasing your X! I also didn't have any real experience at car repair other than the basics (plug changes, etc). I bought an 82 in May that had the transmission in cardboard boxes in the front trunk when I towed it home. By using the Factory Service Manual and the good folks on this site I was able to rebuild the tranny (along with changing a wheel bearing, all the brakes, etc, etc).

I had a similar starting problem - turned out to be nothing more than the connector to the ECU. The ECU is located behind the spare tire on the passenger side. By removing the connector, giving it a good cleaning, and then properly reseating it my starting problem went away.

Give it a try - might work. And again, don't let the mechanical part of things scare you - it's really not that bad (and it's the only way to own an X - you've got to be able to repair it yourself). I live in Charlotte, NC and any of the garages around here just give me a blank look if I ever ask about having them work on the car...

Tom<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "k";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("mike engel"); // --> </SCRIPT>mike engel <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thanks for the support<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 2:22 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Tom,

Thanks loads for the supportive comments. I really am a complete novice at this, but I hope to be able to learn rapidly as I go. I should have taken some sort of shop classes in high school so I would have some experience but, live and learn. Your success is inspirational.

Regarding your response to my starting problem, could you explain how a loose connection could give an intermittent starting problem? I would think that a connection either works or it doesn't. I am probably revealing my ignorance here, but I really would like to understand. When you say give a good cleaning, what do you mean? Just blow it out with compressed air? or something else.

One last thing. Since you started from scratch as well, I wonder if you could give some advice on tools to acquire (as I said, I am truly new to this). I assume a set of metric sockets, jack/jack stands, a multimeter. Any other suggestions?

Thanks for your reply to my post and I hope you have a nice holiday.

Best Wishes,
Mike:)<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Steve Hoelscher[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Suggestions & Encouragement<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 8:28 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I too started with very limited automotive repair experience when I bought my first X in 1978. I was to poor to be able to afford to pay somebody else to work on it, so by necessity, I learned to fix it myself. I have no formal training of any kind. None. Yet there is no system on the car I haven't rebuilt. Approach automotive repair as though is was any other problem to be solved, you will do fine.

A note about the loose connection on the ECU. You are right, a connection either works or it doesn't. And that is where the problem lays. (If this is the problem) The connection has gotten corroded and has a very high resistance. So sometimes the circuit makes the connection and sometimes, the resistance is too high and it doesn't. Sometimes you only need to cycle the connector a few times and the problem is solved. The problem does sound like a problem in the circuitry and not the starter. A bad spot on the starter armature would not have anything to do with the fuel pump, gauge or jumping in the seat.

As for tools. First, only buy quality tools. Cheap tools will cause more problems than they fix. Craftsman is good for weekend wrenching, but then so is the Popular Mechanics brand now being sold at Wal Mart (at great prices). Get a good 3/8ths inch socket set with some extentions and a combination wrench set. The most common sizes on your X will be (in mm) 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22 and a 13/16ths spark plug socket. Next, a good screwdriver set and slip joint plier set. A couple of "cresent" wrenches (one small, one large). A ball peen hammer, a soft face Mallet and a punch and chisle set. A multifunction wire tool and some crimp connectors. A multimeter. A small floor jack and stands. An allen wrench for the drain plug. A pencil magnet. Well, that's a start at least.

Good Luck and enjoy the car.

Steve
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "T";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "C";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Tom C"); // --> </SCRIPT>Tom C <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Right<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 20 2000, 6:38 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Steve hit it right with his listing of tools. The only other suggestion I'd add is a bulk package of shop towels (I bought a gross at a wholesale club - going through them like water).

In my case (regarding the ECU) the car kept trying to turn over; I could hear the fuel pump running and the fuel rail was under pressure (don't ask how I found that one out). It was finally clear that no fuel was coming through the injectors so I decided to re-reseat the connector. While I had the connector off of the ECU I pulled the whole unit out, took it apart and gave it a good alcohol washing (not necessarily something that you should do but I was desperate). Put the unit back together, turned the key and it started right up! Haven't had any starting problems since then (lot's of other problems though).

I will say this though - you won't find a better source of info than this forum. These guys stuck by me for weeks on end while I was working on this - really friendly, knowledgeable group here.

Tom<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Get together?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 20 2000, 1:13 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hey Steve,

I sent this note to your e-mail address (by reply) but received a router error message saying that it couldn't find your server (127.0.0.1) so I am posting it here.

Thanks so much for all your advice. You and others have been very generous with what you know and a novice like me really appreciates it. I was also excited to hear that you live in Huntsville. As I mentioned, I live in Nashville, TN and for the last 8 years have been a medical student/graduate student at Vanderbilt. I will be staying in Nashville to join the Vanderbilt faculty/house staff in July as a pediatrician and medical researcher. The purchase of the Bertone stems from my long standing love affair with italian roadsters (I
owned a Fiat 124 Spider in college and currently own a 1988 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce in addition to the Bertone). Service for the Alfa is readily available in town, but much to my surprise, no one will work on Fiats. I just love driving these cars and have wanted to restore an X1/9 since I was in high school. But, in pursuing my studies, there has not been any time to satisfy this desire until now. However, just after buying the Bertone, I discovered that I needed to have my clutch/flex disc/transmission serviced on my Alfa, and that the bill is going to be quite "large". As such, my desire to do the Bertone restoration myself is being driven by financial reasons too. This brings me to a question. How would you feel about my driving the Bertone down to Huntsville and enlisting your help in making these repairs? Since you don't know me, I realize that this is something of an odd request, but finding like minded X-enthusiasts in Nashville doesn't look like an option at this time, let alone someone with your level of experience. Your having parts that I could purchase is just an added bonus. I am off service until the fourth week in January (i.e., I am on a long vacation) and I would come down anytime that would be convenient for you. If I interpret your note correctly, we should be able to do the work in an afternoon. If you wouldn't mind an apprentice, please drop me a note.

Once again, thanks for thoughts and encouragement and I hope to hear from you soon. Best wishes until then,

Mike
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PS: If you want to see my car (at least my car's twin), go to the photo gallery on the seattle X1/9 club site. Mine is the same as the Silver/gray two tone X1/9 LTD in the 1999 scrapbook, third row, third car from the left. With a little cosmetic work, I hope mine will look just as good.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "w";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Steve Hoelscher"); // --> </SCRIPT>Steve Hoelscher <NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 20 2000, 7:46 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->I don't know why my e-mail didn't work. Try it again, the address is: stevehh@hiwaay.net

Bring your X down and we'll fix that puppy up. 5th is no problem and we can probably figure out your starting problem too in a single afternoon. If we have any additional time, I can give the car a once over to see what else it might need. Don't worry, I am always willing to help out a fellow X head. How about the weekend of Dec. 30 and 31 (or even monday, Jan 1)? That would probably be best for me, weather permitting.

Vandy huh... I know Nashville and West End well. Spent lots of time up there, loved it.

Steve
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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->CHECK THE GROUND STRAP... FIRST!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]December 18 2000, 8:47 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Here's why:

1. I spent 3 weeks looking at everything else 'cause I KNEW I had tightened the ground strap.

2. My son grabbed the strap as he swung under the car when I went to routine the starter... loosening it a bit.

3. Everything else... I mean everything else like the fuel pump, has another GROUND source either to the body, or by a separate lead. The starter must be grounded through the engine, then to the body, via the *&^%$# ground strap on the trans.

If that doesn't do it... then the ignition switch as recommended by others, then pull the starter.

The solenoid can be disassembled and contacts reversed, and after 148K, my starter bearings and brushes were like NEW!

Good luck, keep us appraised of how yur gittin' along!




Tony<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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